Study: Schizophrenics may have a better grasp on objective reality

[tatsumaru]

"Behavioral and electrophysiological data have challenged the intuitive assumption that human behavior is the result of conscious intentions. This notion has important implications for delusions of control in schizophrenia, where patients experience bodily movements as not being controlled by themselves."

In other words non-schizophrenics perceive that they have control while schizophrenics perceive lack of control. Since scientific data suggests the absence of free will, schizophrenics may have a better grasp on objective reality.

Study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29208423/


 

[Leo Gura]

Doesn't surprise me.

Sanity is insanity. The circle is complete

[Faceless]

schizophrenia seems to be a rather common trait between people. I would say 99% of people are schizophrenic then, as a guess Lol

How can such a contradicting, fragmented mind that cannot even grasp reality grasp TRUTH? 

I assume truth is what u mean by objective reality. 

 

Edited January 2, 2018 by Faceless

[star ark]

3 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Sometimes I wonder if I am schizophrenic.  I don't think so, but sometimes I sense I might slightly be.  I have too much of an inner life that sometimes I get to talking to myself, etc.  I don't have a problem letting this stuff go though -- as I see the schizophrenics not being able to do.

Do you care at all about being around people?

Does having a positive conversation with someone make you happy in any way?

 

[Joseph Maynor]

2 minutes ago, star ark said:

Do you care at all about being around people?

Does having a positive conversation with someone make you happy in any way?

 

I don't mind people.  I like to be alone more though.  

[star ark]

@Joseph Maynor I suspect it may be a spectrum disorder like all adhd and autism and perhaps you lean more to the side of schizo than the average guy but a person with a profile pic, the desire to say things which others can use in a positive way etc are all sings of someone who does care about others and how he is perceived.  

[SOUL]

Quote

Delusions of control in schizophrenia: Resistant to the mind's best trick?

Riemer M1.

Author information

Abstract

The existence of a free will is fiercely debated in neuroscience and philosophy. The debate has great impact on society and our self-understanding as human beings. Behavioral and electrophysiological data have challenged the intuitive assumption that human behavior is the result of conscious intentions. This notion has important implications for delusions of control in schizophrenia, where patients experience bodily movements as not being controlled by themselves. Current theories explain control delusions as a deficit to perceive certain aspects of motor control, but many findings are inconsistent with this idea. Here, an alternative view is proposed: Control delusions might be triggered by an even more veridical perception of the temporal order of intentions and actions. This hypothesis is supported by evidence that (a) conscious intentions in healthy subjects are often based on retrospective inferences, (b) temporal recalibrations of conscious percepts occur in healthy subjects and are disturbed in schizophrenia and

(c) basic perceptual functions of schizophrenic patients are less influenced by expectations and therefore they can sometimes be closer to physical reality than those of healthy subjects.

So they suggest the delusions of schizophrenics are resistant to the "mind's best trick", meaning the healthy subjects perceptions are just a 'mind trick'  and that the "delusions" of schizophrenic's with the perception of no control over their actions are closer to "physical reality".

The "healthy subject retroactively inferences" the past, "I like sugar when I ate it yesterday" so "I will like sugar eaten today". Then if their "temporal recalibrations of conscious percepts occur" as "Hey, this isn't sugar, it's salt!" so "I won't eat it" means they have no free will? But if the schizophrenic eats the salt because they think it's sugar and can't control themselves means it is closer to physical reality? Rather it's evidence of two different influences, not forcing.

This is what happens when 'overthinking it' and 'confirmation bias' have a scientist's baby.

 

 

Edited January 2, 2018 by SOUL

[tatsumaru]

18 hours ago, SOUL said:

So they suggest the delusions of schizophrenics are resistant to the "mind's best trick", meaning the healthy subjects perceptions are just a 'mind trick'  and that the "delusions" of schizophrenic's with the perception of no control over their actions are closer to "physical reality".

The "healthy subject retroactively inferences" the past, "I like sugar when I ate it yesterday" so "I will like sugar eaten today". Then if their "temporal recalibrations of conscious percepts occur" as "Hey, this isn't sugar, it's salt!" so "I won't eat it" means they have no free will? But if the schizophrenic eats the salt because they think it's sugar and can't control themselves means it is closer to physical reality? Rather it's evidence of two different influences, not forcing.

This is what happens when 'overthinking it' and 'confirmation bias' have a scientist's baby.

I don't think that's what it means. The way I understand it is that analysing your past actions makes you feel like you were the one making them. For example you start moving your finger to prove that you have free will and then you retroactively analyse "I moved my finger without a reason, therefore I have control over my finger.", but you don't realize that it's only because the notion of free will is externally challenged that you are moving your finger.
In other words you are just a cog wheel in the whole machinery and when it's time to turn you turn, when it's time to stop you stop. This is pretty much what determinism is all about.

[SOUL]

@tatsumaru I look at evidence as it is without putting meaning to it, you suggest what the evidence means using a cute gif to support your meaning.... that's not very scientific of you and not proof your meaning is reality.

[tatsumaru]

1 minute ago, SOUL said:

@tatsumaru I look at evidence as it is without putting meaning to it, you suggest what the evidence means using a cute gif to support your meaning.... that's not very scientific of you and not proof your meaning is reality.

Well, why not put some meaning to it?

[Highest]

I have been diagnosed schizophrenic. I like to keep myself alone. I don't have friends I have family. My stand on reality is simple, it is as you experience it. I like to think I have realized God, but most won't believe me although I have been held down by a power which could only have been from God. But that's a story which I don't except people to believe, but I know it as a fact because it is my experience.

The paradigm/stigma against schizophrenics is ridiculous, just because we experience reality different we are seen as insane or whatever, the fact is the complete opposite. We know reality from the ordinary one, which makes us simply special, or as the Shaman would say, we have special gifts.

[tatsumaru]

4 minutes ago, Highest said:

I have been diagnosed schizophrenic. I like to keep myself alone. I don't have friends I have family. My stand on reality is simple, it is as you experience it. I like to think I have realized God, but most won't believe me although I have been held down by a power which could only have been from God. But that's a story which I don't except people to believe, but I know it as a fact because it is my experience.

The paradigm/stigma against schizophrenics is ridiculous, just because we experience reality different we are seen as insane or whatever, the fact is the complete opposite. We know reality from the ordinary one, which makes us simply special, or as the Shaman would say, we have special gifts.

@HighestPeople don't know anything - that's why they cling to their so called normalcy - anything that stands out threatens our fragile balance which is not even real balance. It's been like that forever. What kind of sick society burns someone on a stake just because this person had a different opinion? Let's not forget that "normal" is just someone's opinion on how things ought to be.

"It's no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - J. Krishnamurti
 

[SOUL]

43 minutes ago, tatsumaru said:

Well, why not put some meaning to it?

You can if you want to but meaning is a personal experience, not a universal one.

[Forestluv]

@tatsumaru Thanks for posting. I am going to use it in my neuroscience course next semester.

[Nahm]

@tatsumaru Maybe there’s no objective reality and neither have a grip on anything. Maybe we’re all One schizophrenic. 

[Epiphany_Inspired]

Some of the schizophrenics I have known were not long for this world for that very trait...I can remember so many times when they pointed out things I hadn't seen in this life/ culture likely because I had "put blinders on"....they also seemed to view beauty more infinitely, and love more deeply....