Reading enlightenment books?

[Gustav]

Hi @Leo Gura!

I just quickly want to mention I haven't begun pursuing enlightenment hardcore, although being a serious meditator.

Without spoiling the book list, Consciousness & Enlightenment obviously is the category with most books.

This is curious.

My inquiry comes in two parts:

1. Why is there a need to read that many books (especially when many are top-ranked), when more and more conceptual understanding leads "nowhere" in this particular matter (sure you need a knowledge base, but still)? Are not just a few enough? Do they say different things?

2. If all these books tackle the subject from different angles, what is the most strategical/practical order to go through them? Generally, of course, every individual needs to figure out for their own what "to do", but the enlightenment books concerns a very specific topic and points to an exact destination - spiritual enlightenment. It seems to me, then, at least there should be some order to read them through. For instance, I would start with the one you explicitly dub #1, but what about Yamada Roshi's book? Seems like his book should come after a couple enlightenment experiences since it describes advanced stages. Etc, etc, etc.

 

Keep rocking and a thousand thanks for your work! 

/Gustav

[How to be wise]

@Gustav there are many different paths to enlightenment. Question is, which one is right for you. You can only know that by reading a vast number of perspectives towards enlightenment, and then seeing which one suits your priorities. Because some of the techniques give more than just ‘enlightenment’.

[Leo Gura]

5 hours ago, Gustav said:

Why is there a need to read that many books (especially when many are top-ranked), when more and more conceptual understanding leads "nowhere" in this particular matter (sure you need a knowledge base, but still)? Are not just a few enough? Do they say different things?

Because you do not know!

Stop assuming you know what enlightenment is, or where it leads, or what your inquiry will unearth. Only then can you truly inquire.

For all you know, enlightenment could give you herpes. And here you are just stumbling into it blindly.

Why would you assume you know a thing unless you've researched the hell out of it? And how can you claim to have researched the hell out of it if you haven't even bothered to read 50 books on the subject?

Would you go to a brain surgeon who hasn't read 50 books about the brain?

Would you hire an engineer to build you a bridge who hasn't read 50 books about engineering?

[star ark]

Just reading is an exercise in internal voice and balancing the mind. Any benign pursuit is building discipline and as long as you aren't pushing yourself too extremely then it could also be a healthy distraction from negative activities. It also creates mindfulness, the more you put into self inquiry the more likely you are to be mindful just out in the mundane day to day life. Looking for a quick crash course is manic behavior, I know, I was manic for a decade.

[Source_Mystic]

The process of enlightenment does not come from reading it comes from practicing awareness.  Even the best books I read directed my awareness not my mind.  I guess you could read 50 or a 100  books on awareness or enlightenment or you could just meditate and experience it yourself. The point of enlightenment is to see reality. You can only do this though awareness. Meditation is just getting you familiar with how awareness feels and how to get to that state of being. Once that state is achieved the only question you have to ask is what is the next target of my awareness. So read if you have to but I would research techniques and different ways to focus your awareness or how to get to different states of consciousness.

good luck

[Girzo]

Quote

A great Egyptian pharaoh summons his two young nephews, Chuma and Azur, and he commissions them to a majestic task: Build two monumental pyramids as a tribute to Egypt. Upon completion of each nephew’s pyramid, Pharaoh promises each an immediate reward of kingship, retirement amidst riches, and lavish luxury for the rest of their natural lives. Additionally, each nephew must construct his pyramid alone.

Chuma and Azur, both 18, know their daunting task will take years to complete. Nonetheless, each is primed for the challenge and honored by the Pharaoh’s directive. They exit Pharaoh’s chambers ready to begin the long pyramid-building process.

Azur begins work immediately. He slowly drags large heavy stones into a square formation. After a few months, the base of Azur’s pyramid takes shape. Townsfolk gather around Azur’s constructive efforts and praise his handiwork. The stones are heavy and difficult to move, and after one year of heavy labor, Azur’s perfect square foundation to the pyramid is nearly finished.

But Azur is perplexed. The plot of land that should bear Chuma’s pyramid is empty. Not one stone has been laid. No foundation. No dirt engravings. Nothing. It’s as barren as it was a year ago when Pharaoh commissioned the job. Confused, Azur visits Chuma’s home and finds him in his barn diligently working on a twisted apparatus that resembles some kind of human torture device.

Azur interrupts, “Chuma! What the hell are you doing!? You’re supposed to be building Pharaoh a pyramid and you spend your days locked in this barn fiddling with that crazy machine?”

Chuma cracks a smile and says, “I am building a pyramid, leave me alone.”

Azur scoffs, “Yeah, sure you are. You haven’t laid one stone in over a year!”

Chuma, engrossed and unfazed by his brother’s accusation retorts, “Azur, you’re short-sightedness and thirst for wealth have clouded your vision. You build your pyramid and I will build mine.”

As Azur walks away, he chides, “You fool! Pharaoh will hang you in the gallows when he discovers your treason.”

Another year passes and Azur solidifies the base of his pyramid and begins the second level. Except a problem arises. Azur struggles in his progress. The stones are heavy and he cannot raise them to the pyramid’s second level. Challenged by his physical limitations, Azur recognizes his weakness: he needs more strength to move heavier stones, and to do so, seeks the counsel of Bennu, Egypt’s strongest man. For a fee, Bennu trains Azur to build bigger and stronger muscles. With great strength, Azur anticipates the heavier stones will be easier to lift onto the higher levels.

Meanwhile, Chuma’s pyramid plot of land is still barren. Azur assumes his brother has a death wish since, by all appearances, Chuma is violating Pharaoh’s mandate. Azur forgets about his brother and his nonexistent pyramid.

Another year passes and Azur’s pyramid construction slows to a disheartening crawl. It often takes one month just to place one stone. Moving stones to the upper levels require great strength and Azur spends much of his time working with Bennu to build greater strength.

Additionally, Azur is spending most of his money on counseling fees and the exotic diet required for the training. Azur estimates at his current construction pace, his pyramid will be completed in another 30 years. Unfazed, Azur lauds, “After three years, I’ve far surpassed my brother. He hasn’t placed one stone yet! That fool!”

Then, suddenly, one day while hauling a heavy stone up his pyramid, Azur hears a loud commotion erupting from the town square. The townsfolk, regular observers to his work, abruptly abandon his plot to examine the celebratory fuss. Curious himself, Azur takes a break and leaves to investigate.

Surrounded by a cheering crowd, Chuma trolls up the town square commandeering a 25-foot contraption, a towering machine built from a twisted maze of gantries, wheels, levers, and ropes. As Chuma slowly moves up the village street amidst the buoyant crowd, Azur fears the explanation. After a short trawl to Chuma’s barren pyramid plot, Azur’s suspicions are confirmed.

Within minutes, Chuma’s strange machine starts moving heavy stones and begins to lay the foundation to his pyramid. One after another, the machine effortlessly lifts the stones and softly places them side-by-side into place. Miraculously, the machine requires little effort for Chuma’s operation. Crank a wheel attached to a rope and cantilever entwined by a gear system, and bingo! Heavy stones are moved quickly and magically.

While Azur’s pyramid foundation took over a year to build, Chuma lines up the foundation to his pyramid within one week. The second level that Azur so arduously struggled with is even more shocking: Chuma’s machine does the work 30 times quicker. What took Azur two months takes Chuma’s machine two days. After 40 days, Chuma and his machine accomplish as much as Azur’s three years of toilsome work.

Azur was destroyed. He spent years doing the heavy lifting while Chuma built a machine to do it for him.

Instead of honoring the machine, Azur vows, “I must get stronger! I must lift heavier stones!” Azur continues the hard labor of pyramid building while Chuma continues to work the crank of his machine.

After eight years, Chuma finishes his pyramid at age 26: three years to build the system and five years to reap the benefits of the system. The great pharaoh is pleased and does as promised. He rewards Chuma with kingship and endows him with great riches. Chuma never has to work another day in his life.

Meanwhile, Azur continues to dredge away at the same old routine. Lift rocks, waste time and money to get stronger, lift rocks, and get stronger. Sadly, Azur refuses to acknowledge his flawed strategy and endures the same old process: Carry heavy stones until you can lift no more . . . then get stronger so you can lift heavier stones.

This mindless prescription leads Azur to a lifetime of toil. He never finishes his pyramid promised to Pharaoh simply because he decides to do the heavy lifting himself when he should have focused on a system to do it for him. Azur has a heart attack and dies while on the 12th level of his pyramid, just two levels from finishing. He never experiences the great riches promised by Pharaoh.

Meanwhile, Chuma retires 40 years early in a crown of luxury. Sloshing in free time, Chuma goes on to become Egypt’s greatest scholar and an accomplished inventor. He is entombed alongside Pharaoh in the same pyramid he built.

That's a difference between having a broad understanding and going straight into the labor, that means meditating. And how do you develop the understanding? You read books, attend seminars, retreats, find teachers, trip on psychedelics. Do this for 3 years and 5 years of work will bring more benefit than 50 years of dabbling in meditation without a sense of direction.

Edited December 29, 2017 by Girzo

[pluto]

Sometimes 1 book can trigger something within you and lead you to other things. Books are amazing regardless as you put them into practice, magic can unfold. Here's one of my favorite pictures

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by pluto

[Joseph Maynor]

Don’t turn that into a limiting-belief.  You can work on your Enlightenment right now.  Don’t assume you need anything for this work to work on it.  Now, when you get books, great, but go ahead and start this work right away.

[Faceless]

Can enlightenment be experienced through the movment of will? 

And is that state or feeling of enlightenment an experience? Or this “enlightenment” actually more like the freedom from experience? 

Seems like seeking an experience of enlightenment is an imposibity...This state is a state where the center is not. Therefore no experience. If there is no experiencer can there be an experience? 

Kinda cool to think about??‍♂️

Edited December 29, 2017 by Faceless

[Faceless]

Is there a how to on enlightenment? 

[Faceless]

U need no book friend. All those books only get in the way and become a block.  “Enlightenment” is not a object of time. This state of enlightenment is timeless. Not a movement by the center “time” 

You can go ahead and spend years trying to find out the hard way though??

 

 

 

[Gustav]

On 2017-12-29 at 1:41 AM, Leo Gura said:

Because you do not know!

Stop assuming you know what enlightenment is, or where it leads, or what your inquiry will unearth. Only then can you truly inquire.

For all you know, enlightenment could give you herpes. And here you are just stumbling into it blindly.

Why would you assume you know a thing unless you've researched the hell out of it? And how can you claim to have researched the hell out of it if you haven't even bothered to read 50 books on the subject?

Would you go to a brain surgeon who hasn't read 50 books about the brain?

Would you hire an engineer to build you a bridge who hasn't read 50 books about engineering?

Of course, I’m not enlightened and that’s why I’m puzzled.

I am by no means looking for shortcuts or fear hard labor, and I do understand thorough research and practice is important to master anything.

The only thing I’m asking about is whether or not I can plan out my reading in any way to get the most out them, so that the books tie nicely into each other. My point is: Is there such a thing?

I am not skeptical. On the opposite, as a beginner who has vague notions, I think this is super fascinating. From my "position", it’s so weird that there are so many different and comprehensive books about this, because I think of the "state" of enlightenment as very simple and uncomplicated after all.

[Nahm]

@Gustav I think the categories on the main page of the forum are listed purposefully.   Enjoy your life. Do everything. 

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Gustav said:

From my "position", it’s so weird that there are so many different and comprehensive books about this, because I think of the "state" of enlightenment as very simple and uncomplicated after all.

That is where you'd be wrong.

If enlightenment was as simple as people like to think it is, there wouldn't be so many spiritual books, teachers, teachings, and debates.

The traps in this work are legion.

The facets of enlightenment are many.

The depth of this rabbit hole is beyond all human comprehension.

And there is way more to enlightenment than enlightenment alone.

If you neglect to do the research, I would bet good money you will never make it to enlightenment at all, and even if you have a glimpse or two, you will turn into a Zen devil, as so many people here are doing. There's nothing like one or two glimpses of the Absolute to bring out the devil in you.

There is a very good reason why the world's oldest spiritual traditions are deep, intricate, and enormously nuanced. Because that reflects the nature of the spiritual terrain. But you will not appreciate any of that without lots of careful and openminded research.

Enlightenment is simple. Enlightenment is complex. Enlightenment is all those things, and none of those things.

When faced with the unknown, the wise person does research rather than making simplistic assumptions.

[Faceless]

Lol ? 

You are your own book guys. Don’t be fooled by your assumptions about another. Time “thought/knowledge” is needed for Communication. In that sense cultivation is necessary. If one feels they want to communicate this of course. 

This centerless state implies no movment of time. “You” The self can’t get to a timeless state when “The you” is of time. 

We can’t do anything about the timeless. All we can do is deal with that of time, “Thought”. The timeless becomes its own movemt in this awarness of thought. How you approach this is crucial. 

Do you guys see this? 

Be carful folks. Don’t be deceived. You need knowone unless your think you do of course. 

[How to be wise]

@Leo Gura I guess that’s the dark side of psychedelics. It shows enlightenment to someone who hasn’t worked for it, and they end up discarding it. This wouldn’t have happened with the old school self inquiry or yoga path. 

[Dodo]

In Bulgaria we have a word 'Просвета', which means both Enlightenment and Education. 

I have memories of being in an afterlife, regretting that I didn't read more. Perhaps we are on this plane with the purpose to learn as well, not only fool around  ? Like also to learn at our core, not only learning something that we'll forget after few days/months/years. Learning things that will stick with us forever n ever! 

 

Come to think of Bulgarian words... Свят  means both World and Holy  !

Edited December 30, 2017 by Dodo

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, How to be wise said:

@Leo Gura This wouldn’t have happened with the old school self inquiry or yoga path. 

The problem with the old school paths is that you can meditate for 30 years and still get nowhere.

Every path has its traps. The trap is not in the path so much as in the ego walking it. Wherever you go, there you are.

[snowleopard]

@Gustav  In this case, with about zero interest in spirituality/metaphysics, after a seemingly random, unexpected, inexplicable glimpse of "___",  the mind became utterly obsessed with finding out what had happened. In those pre-internet days, books were the only option, and the reading was so compelling, I couldn't get enough of it, and can't recall ever asking for recommendations, coming across books that seemed to appear in the most unexpected ways, almost as if it were meant to be. While I'm not sure that it made one any more awakening-prone, it did play a big part in coming to terms with the event, and giving it some kind of meaningful context. Had I instead become a monk and meditated diligently for countless years, without reading any of the books, I'm not sure I would have been any more awake. So it may well be that we do what we are compelled to do, regardless of what anyone advises, and we don't really choose a path, but rather it chooses us. And having some fixated expectation of how it has to be may have no bearing on how it will be. In any case, keep the faith that it can be.

Edited December 30, 2017 by snowleopard

[Faceless]

There is no path. A path implies a movement of the self who is seeking. 

The acceptance of these divisive ideas, methods, and philosophies are an expression of this movement of the center. The me who seeks comfort and security. The me who seeks validation and respectability. 

That is who this entity “the Me” “the U” is. All of those and more. If we can not see this corruption of the self “center” than how do we know what is true or false. 

Again, There is no set path.

 Even if someone claimed to have the goods how would you know. Especially if you can not even see the truth of your own motives and intentions. And if that “guru” were to try and explain that path to you.....

The description is never the described.