Art And Suffering

[Guest Mount Bananas]

I have reluctantly asked myself this as I wish to become a great artist one day, perhaps a musician or a visual artist. Is human suffering a requirement for great art? It would seem that way since in today's society we like to romanticize about the "tortured artist". Perhaps we think that these people are very emotional, expressive and real artists because we are judging from exactly the same lens, since we suffer too, and we can relate to their suffering. I am interested in your opinions. What do you guys think? Do you think that for one to become a great artist, he must suffer and then pour his suffering into his art? If one is to achieve this state of no suffering, does he become less relatable to other human beings? Does his art lose the quality?

The examples of such musicians are endless: Janis Joplin, Kurt Cobain, Elliott Smith, Thom Yorke (though he seems to have dealt with his issues nowadays), Amy Winehouse, to name a few. And these are just some of the most mainstream names out there.

Edited December 25, 2017 by Mount Bananas

[ajasatya]

@Mount Bananas what about those touching paintings from enlightened zen guys?

[Dsteller]

As a musician, this post caught my interest immediately. I recently went through a fairly nasty breakup and I can say that as a result of that breakup, I wrote 41 songs and was approached by a record label (Which I turned down as I do not think I am ready for that and have SO SO SO Much more to learn and grow emotionally and musically.)  Now the question is: Do I attribute that success to the breakup and the pain I went through? Yes, but not in the way of "heartbreak" and "rather love and lost than not loved at all." But rather, I attribute the success to the fact that I figured out my life path (cloud clearing experience leading to personal development etc.) and was able to tell stories about my life. Sure, I wrote maybe five songs about the breakup and her and the pain associated with it, but then I quickly started writing about my growth and my personal journey (my dogs, my home town, waking up in the morning, etc.) This breakup and emotional state pushed me into my path of personal development and therefore I realized my path of pursuing music. This is what pushed me towards my success, realizing my path, executing it, and not being in a neurotic state of mind.

For me, music has NEVER been about the fame or materialism, but rather about FEELING. Not telling people what to feel, but just making them feel period as we live in a feelingless time. To me, it is my path to make people feel through my music and creativity. This is the understanding I came too when I got out of a neurotic time and saw clearly for the first time. 

Yes, the breakup got me into a place where I could start over and figure out my life path. Heartbreak had to happen. THAT HAD TO HAPPEN. For me. For someone else, it could be anything that pushes them to see clear and get on their path, a death, eating problems, a pet dying, whatever it may be. Anything that cuts them completely clear from that old state of mind. When they realize their life path is to make art and be creative, they will succeed in one way or another, internally and (after x amount of time) externally. 

I can really really attest to this experience and understanding as I had these amazing results in my life after my breakup (cloud clearing experience) and then my ex came back begging for me, I said yes (for a few days) and ALL results I gained went down the shitter and I ended up laying on my kitchen floor crying because of the internal pain I caused myself. Then I ended it with her for my own sake, and it hurt, then I got back on my path, and DAMN. What you're asking is such an omen and interesting question and I'm so happy I can contribute my experience. I'm really interested to hear others' experiences.

In addition to all of this, I think about the MOST RESPECTED musicians of all time. Billy Joel, Bruce Springsteen, Beethoven, Van Morrison, anyone of the all time greats, they got their clarity and got on their path to create and make art and fulfill the world with their gift, and they would write a few songs about love, but after that, it was just their creativity making music and songs (not about love: Land of Hopes and Dreams by Bruce Springsteen, Mary's Place by Bruce, any piece written by Beethoven (he was just a got who made music because that's what he was put on this world to do), Cleaning Windows by VM... I could go on and on) to make people feel period. Thoughts?

[Guest Mount Bananas]

Do you guys think that a musician should just be empathetic and be able to put himself in other people's shoes, or in other words, to be able to observe an emotion and express it, without having to necessarily feel it? I hope this makes sense.

[Guest Mount Bananas]

@ajasatya

I don't think I've seen those paintings. I'm only aware of the Buddhist monks who paint a picture in the sand, often taking them weeks, only to erase/destroy it afterwards. This helps them respect impermanence. I think that they're called mandala (not 100% sure). If you could send me a link here with some of those paintings I would be grateful.

[Dsteller]

@Mount Bananas ^^ this about Bruce Springsteen. A musician is a story teller gone on steroids to make people feel more with vibrations and wavelengths. 

[Guest Mount Bananas]

@Dsteller

Thank you for pouring your heart out there man. I'll be sure to check out those songs.

[Nahm]

@Dsteller BRUUUUUCE

I love it

Johnny 99...huh...right...? I love Nebraska. I got to meet Bruce a while back, maybe 15 years ago. I had a few minutes with him. Could’ve asked him anything. Instead I stared at him, 2 feet in front of him, like a moron. Lol. 

”Let em shave of my hair, and put me on that killin line”

Get’s me every time.

I think meaningful art triggers a “me too” reaction, wether it’s from suffering or from joy, and also sometimes, it says “there’s something here you haven’t seen yet, or something you’ve missed”.

You might like this one. I feel like he’s describing a typical ‘man’ situation in the verses, and then being and expressing the unspeakable in the chorus. And her little laugh at the end, 

 

 

[Dsteller]

@Mount Bananas I highly urge you too  This is a really interesting subject. I think if you find anyone else who has had their "cloud clearing experience" and has found music or art is their path, they too will tell you this truth. Watch any interview of the people above (maybe not VM or BS because they're egos are THROUGH THE ROOF, but that's what happens when you sell out young and have a life full of ego ego ego and aren't stable enough in your self and authenticity.) Look at John Mayer! haha! What a perfect example! He himself calls himself a "recovering narcissist."

For people who have made it and aren't egotistical:

Glen Hansard, Damion Rice, Amos Lee, The Barr Brothers, John Butler (Trio), Lisa Hannigan, Hozier (believe it or not... He made his album then went on tour, then ghost... Moved back to his hometown and hasn't made a move (with the exception of the Tarzan song but that was at the tail end of his tour so thats an exception) since.), Alison Brown...

In the pop world, it's really hard to do this because this scene of ego ego ego can be so consuming and if you aren't stable in yourself then you go down the shitter. 

[Dsteller]

@Nahm ^

[DoubleYou]

Artists suffer because they are slowly becoming aware of the fact that their little ego doesnt have the capabilities to create the art they can so clearly envision. 

The journey of a succesful artist is the journey towards ego death. And then art is just created out of love. Its the hero's journey. The greatest art requires the greatest sacrifice. 

You see, looking at it from a non-dual perspective... life is art. In the same way life is created out of itself, so is art. Completely groundless. So of course an artist will suffer. Any artist that realises this, knows that to create his best art, he has to become groundless himself. How? Dissolve completely.

The thing is, most artists (that take art this serious) have no idea about this. They'll just keep fighting an ego for the entirety of their lifes. Unable to express that masterpiece that they know is with them all the time. 

The plot twist in the end of course, is that this journey itself was the greatest of art. Gods search for himself.

Were all artists. And the best artist is no artist at all.  

So... im not sure If that is a good way to motivate you haha. But you specifically mentioned the words "great artist."  This is what Ive encountered. Great art isnt an easy thing. But then again, our culture doesnt even recognise great art most of the time. Do it for the sake of doing it. 

[Dsteller]

@Nahm yes Nathaniel Rateliff!!! Talk about someone who is truly authentic and doesn't sell out (yet, hopefully never will!) WAY grounded in himself (worked his ass off for years before he got any recognition.)

[Viking]

1 hour ago, ajasatya said:

@Mount Bananas what about those touching paintings from enlightened zen guys?

can you give some examples?

[ajasatya]

@Mount Bananas @Ilya

koho shoda

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Mount Bananas said:

Is human suffering a requirement for great art?

No

[Serge]

Quote

 Is human suffering a requirement for great art?

Only if you think so. The idea is - you created, either consciously or unconsciously, suffering for yourself. There's no intrinsic suffering in Life. Life is a dance. Life is a song. Human beings were given this beautiful gift by the Universe - the mind. But, as Sadhguru so on point says it, have we read the user's manual?

Peace!

Edited December 26, 2017 by Serge

[art]

@Mount Bananas @Leo Gura If you haven't been molested as a child and suffer from PTSD, been in a war zone and lost a close family member when you was between 4-18 and suffer daily, feeling like you're torn apart inside and bleed like only the gods can bleed in hell, if haven't travelled alone for two years, living of nothing, sleeping under the street, eating only bread with butter, and walked hungry in old clothes, like a beggar, but still making great great art while in the middle of this... AND if you didn't start early when you was FIVE YEARS OLD! If you haven't experienced this, you are DOOMED to NOT EVER, making valuable art. You can try but it will be kitsch and not the REAL FUCKING THING! Great artists suffer greatest. I'm sorry, but you should have thought about this when you was five. 

[Guest Mount Bananas]

@see_on_see @Serge 

Thank you for your shared thoughts.

[BjarkeT]

Is human suffering a requirement for great art? 

I don't think so at all i have composed music for at least four years and played the piano for about 10 years and i have never used suffering as something that improved my skill the research on expertise doesn't say anything about suffering rather what matters in improvement is deliberate pratice(and deep work, rarer and valuable skills) the more you do it the better you will be and thats what really improve your skill

you could use suffering in your art but I don't think you need that to make great art I don't think john williams, alan sivilstri needed it to make their great works or other artists 

something i have noticed with top performers is that a lot of them if not all seems to have had a huge amount of education(or learning) which is very likely to play a role in what made them great and not suffering but don't let this stop you if you want to have a career you can still be pretty good and even better with more time of the right effort we all have to start somewhere 

Edited December 26, 2017 by BjarkeT

[Joseph Maynor]

All you’re looking to do here is to create a limiting belief, which is a distraction. Give me a paragraph of the kind of art that you want to create and why you want to create it.

Edited December 26, 2017 by Joseph Maynor