On Free Will

[Faceless]

All within the realm of thought therefore not free 

[Faceless]

Find out for yourself ??

[AnTe]

@Faceless, thoughts and words are meant to be used not to be used by them.

[Nahm]

@Angelo John Gage If you were infinite, you could imagine billions of beings, and be, directly through “them”. If everything appeared as some thing other than what it is, it would seem like there were separate things. Points within it would be God questioning the existence of God, and God questioning the truth of God within the self - and if it’s God, there’s nothing else, so it is all happening with nothing, through your self. It’s a serious mindfuck to work backwards through. All roads lead to fun. 

[NoSelfSelf]

We have 2 choices either we go along with the train of thoughts or we dont everything else is just a play of the mind and the universe(God)...

[CruellerSloth]

I wondered when this topic would come up here. It's the biggest contradiction in this whole field IMO.

Love the idea about 50% free will. Then you could see life as a rail track with MANY different ways and points where you can decide which way you want to go. So you have somewhat of a free will, but also some degree of determinism.

[Joseph Maynor]

Who is this you that has the will?  That’s the deeper issue.  You need to start there.  What is this you that has the will?  Do you see how metaphorical this language and thought is?

[Cepzeu]

When you 'choose' to not identify with thoughts is that just an action stemming from a thought that occurs after you have noticed the thought in question? For example:

Thought 1: "I should eat that cheeseburger"

(thought 1 is perceived by awareness)

Thought 2: "Oh cool I just managed to be aware of that thought, I can choose not to go through with it"

The question is whether you chose to think thought 2 (which in the case of no free will is not true) or did the thought arise sporadically due to your experiences and knowledge that being aware of thoughts and not pursuing them may be important.

[Cepzeu]

15 hours ago, CruellerSloth said:

I wondered when this topic would come up here. It's the biggest contradiction in this whole field IMO.

Love the idea about 50% free will. Then you could see life as a rail track with MANY different ways and points where you can decide which way you want to go. So you have somewhat of a free will, but also some degree of determinism.

What determines the 'ways' and 'points' that are open to you? Can the thought of becoming an astronaut exits if you have never heard of what an astronaut is or have never been exposed to the idea of being in space? My point is that the thoughts that you have arise from past experience. Thoughts lead to actions. Even the action of not pursuing or acting on a thought arose from a thought (or another sporadic biochemical reflex).  Your past experiences, current situation, and future actions based on the thoughts that arise in the now are not controlled by you.

[Faceless]

@Cepzeu??

[Forestluv]

@Angelo John Gage When discussing free will, it’s really important to define terms such “you” and “I”. Different usages completely change the framework.

It sounds like you are using “you” and “I” in the traditional sense of one’s self identity. In such a case, there is a VERY strong subjective experience of having free will. So strong it overpowers an objective perspective. Yet one only needs to reach an intermediate stage of meditation to become an observer of one’s thoughts.  Then, it becomes clear “I” am not the author of “my” thoughts and actions- “I” only observe them AFTER they occur. Thoughts come from some mysterious place I don’t understand.

As an aside, when I fully realized the magnitude of having no free will, I went into full on panic, terror and insanity. For the first time in my life, I had thoughts and urges to kill myself - as that’s the only way to regain control and make it stop. But of course, I had no free will to kill myself either.

Edited December 27, 2017 by Serotoninluv

[sgn]

On 2017-12-26 at 0:26 AM, NoSelfSelf said:

We have 2 choices either we go along with the train of thoughts or we dont everything else is just a play of the mind and the universe(God)...

Who is it that chooses to follow the thoughts or not?

[Shu]

Logic is limited, words limited.. youl find it true at the "end" of the web... it will be scaterd to a many(if not infinite) directions there... and youl have a choise to scatter youself folowing along  your precios logic ..and logicly "enouph" youl abandon it ))... and then.... welcome to the club))

Edited December 27, 2017 by Shu

[NoSelfSelf]

@sgn You the one who whatch them 

[Angelo John Gage]

@Cepzeu @Faceless The observer of the thoughts can choose to act or not act upon them...If that observer is "God", then does God have no free will? 

[Angelo John Gage]

@Shiva Regardless of where these thoughts come from, or whether they are of our own creation or suggestions from our brains inputs, memories, etc; we can choose to focus on, ignore, act or not act upon these thoughts...even if they aren't 'ours' because when we realize they aren't 'ours' the perceiver realizing it "decides" ...

A thought cannot observe itself; therefore, we cannot be thoughts.

If we go with the argument that we are God split in infinite ways; then you are saying God has no free will either, as we are God. 

 

[Angelo John Gage]

If the "truth" is that everything is a paradox, then we should have free will and no free will simultaneously which fits my description perfectly; that it is 50/50; 

our free will comes from the ability to decide, regardless of what these thoughts are, when we are AWARE... when we are not aware of what we are doing, it is if we have no free will as we are acting instinctual and on a lower level of consciousness. It takes effort, focus, and awareness to have free will; but even so, it is not "free" because it is partially constrained by the events and circumstances built upon your karma.

So when I speak of free will, I am not saying that there is nothing influencing us from our past or thoughts that come in or out of our head; its what we decide to do in the moment, regardless of all the information. 

There are many times in our lives we get carried away by emotions and do things we can't believe we did; but then there are times we knew precisely what we did and willed it to be so.

 

[Faceless]

God? Ah man.

Just wipe away every concept that u have and start from scratch. Empty the mind of all these ideas you read about. Freedom from these ideas is essential. Only then are you free to explore. Such abstractions are only a hinderance.

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by Faceless

[SOUL]

I don't understand how an individual can simultaneously hold the belief that enlightenment exists and free will doesn't.

Also, 'influence' isn't the same thing as 'force' but it seems some people think they are.

[Angelo John Gage]

@Cepzeu An illusion or thought cannot act upon a thought.

If we are God, then we have free will. If we are not God, then we do not. Rocks don't have free will; neither does the moon. Plants don't have free will. Trees don't have free will.

Yet God inhabits these things if he is everything; but these things are different than us, and God can "act" through us, which is really us if we are God, and we have free will to act.

The ego is basically a survival mechanism which has become self aware and tried to convince us we are the ego; in other words, we Gods have got sucked into our own software that we forget we were driving the vehicle.