inquiry step help, I'm not the thinker?

[Dino D]

They are thaughts...

I observe them, so I'm not the thoughts... OK, I'm the observer hmm... But thoughts come by them selfs, only if i try not to think, because I can also activly think, then I'm the thinker... I DO the thinking, thoughts dont arise from them selfs, i make them, I think them by will, I controle them (not apsolutly but i do ,,drive thinking) ... It's hard to express but I try it...

Also, by will I go to the feelings of my hand, my foot, my body... I do it with free Will, then I again do the thinking, adn back to senzations... I'm littelary doing this, I controll what i observe, i choose, it's done by free will, by decision... the decision maker seems the same one as the thinker (so I decide where my awareness or atention goes, i do the ,,thinkig" and decision making by my free will, by my choosing)

Ok, words are limited... I hope you get me, I can not get beside that ,GUY who is the active thinker" who moves his attention/awareness trought the body, who decides... suggestions, help? 

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Dino D said:

I DO the thinking, thoughts dont arise from them selfs, i make them, I think them by will, I controle them

No, actually you don't control them AT ALL.

Notice that you actually have ZERO control over your thoughts.

Notice that you have no idea what thought will come in the next 3 seconds. Let alone any further out than that.

BIG HAIRY PURPLE ELEPHANT.

See, I just implanted a thought into your mind. You had zero control over it. In fact, I have more control over your thoughts than you do!

FAST JUICY WEASEL.

See! I did it again. I am in control of your thoughts!

The thought that "I control my thoughts" is itself a thought that you did not control, did not will into being, but that just arose spontaneously.

Apply more awareness to your actually process of thinking until you break this illusion that you have any control over them.

Here's something to try:

Stop all thoughts for the next 30 seconds.

Notice you cannot do it. That should make you very suspicious of this idea that you control thoughts. If you had the control claim you have, you should easily be able to stop your thoughts for a measly 30 seconds.

The entire notion of control is one big fat lie. You've never controlled anything in your life. You've only thought you have.

[krazzer]

3 hours ago, Dino D said:

because I can also activly think, then I'm the thinker... I DO the thinking, thoughts dont arise from them selfs, i make them, I think them by will, I controle them (not apsolutly but i do ,,drive thinking) ... 

Are you sure about this? When you think "I'm hungry", where does this thought come from? Did you decide to think this thought?

[Dino D]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No, actually you don't control them AT ALL.

Notice that you actually have ZERO control over your thoughts.

Notice that you have no idea what thought will come in the next 3 seconds. Let alone any further out than that.

BIG HAIRY PURPLE ELEPHANT.

See, I just implanted a thought into your mind. You had zero control over it. In fact, I have more control over your thoughts than you do!

FAST JUICY WEASEL.

See! I did it again. I am in control of your thoughts!

The thought that "I control my thoughts" is itself a thought that you did not control, did not will into being, but that just arose spontaneously.

Apply more awareness to your actually process of thinking until you break this illusion that you have any control over them.

Here's something to try:

Stop all thoughts for the next 30 seconds.

Notice you cannot do it. That should make you very suspicious of this idea that you control thoughts.

Fascinating how you always answer... I understand you (thats why i said that they come alone if i dont think, also my thinking is very relative and and that are not my  original, authentical thaughts, thats why I used the comperrison i drive the thinking, like driving a car (I'm not runing the car, the weals, the engine, it does it on its own but I'm still driving) So, OK, I'm not in controll of my thoughts, but you say I'm not in control 100%, or 100% without control, and that I dont understand, best examples: I will now choose with 100% control (I guess) to lift my left arm, (and I do that right now) now I will think of a airplain (and ther it is i visualize it just now) I will now think of you, and I do... Ok i will try to stop thinkig. I cant, random stuff pops up by its on (no controll) now you put stuff in my head (againg no control-you control my thoughts, so can other peple, books, tv, experiences and everything outside of me... i get that, thats when i dont have control, but i think i have control in situations whitch i described... I will now type down 5 letters, 2 identical letters of my choice, one time the letter A, and one time the two first letter that I see in my boroswer in the left side of the screen; here we go :::  D, D, A, I, N ... you see, control???

Now you can say that it was not my will to choose those 5 letters, that this choice is the exact result of my complete life that lead to this moment in combination with just spontanious possibility, and thats what happend on its own, not with my will or with the will of the thinker / the decison maker / the attention controller ... BUT LEO, thats me making a double assuption: of what you could answer and of what generally could justify that i 100% dont controle my thoughts... I mean i can 100 times choose what to think of, and you can 100 times put a thought in my head, and that SEEAMS pretty much as a different way/reasaon/cause of thaughts... youre in control when you put the thought in my head, and I'm in control when i do it or when i choose what to do... that so different in my experince... 

[Dino D]

13 minutes ago, krazzer said:

Are you sure about this? When you think "I'm hungry", where does this thought come from? Did you decide to think this thought?

no, see my quote on leos answer... now i did choose, i could explain it to you, with different examples, but i chosse not to, i send you to my previos replay to leo... the thought of hunger is not 100% in my controll it's the result of bodyly senzations that arrise when the body wants nutritients/to eat, and those senzations are the direct cause of me thinking about hunger... but if I choose to lift up my right arm now, thats ,,me the thinker, the controler, the decision maker" ?

[bananak]

14 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No, actually you don't control them AT ALL.

Notice that you actually have ZERO control over your thoughts.

Notice that you have no idea what thought will come in the next 3 seconds. Let alone any further out than that.

BIG HAIRY PURPLE ELEPHANT.

See, I just implanted a thought into your mind. You had zero control over it. In fact, I have more control over your thoughts than you do!

FAST JUICY WEASEL.

See! I did it again. I am in control of your thoughts!

The thought that "I control my thoughts" is itself a thought that you did not control, did not will into being, but that just arose spontaneously.

Apply more awareness to your actually process of thinking until you break this illusion that you have any control over them.

Here's something to try:

Stop all thoughts for the next 30 seconds.

Notice you cannot do it. That should make you very suspicious of this idea that you control thoughts. If you had the control claim you have, you should easily be able to stop your thoughts for a measly 30 seconds.

The entire notion of control is one big fat lie. You've never controlled anything in your life. You've only thought you have.

This is really mind-fucking me. My best music seems to come out when I am not thinking at all. What is it that anticipates the next note I play when its all just coming out? I've been trying to figure this out for a year or so now since I've experienced a few moments of expression that felt so good I can't put into words. It's really only when I can get out of my own head and the world completely, I always get sucked back in. I'm hoping a meditation habit can cure this. 

I'm just trying to figure out where the influence of thought comes from when I'm playing freely and in the moment. Maybe sounds I listen to and hear the most everyday? Or sounds that really hit me and catch my attention on the regular? Maybe it's a sound I loved that I heard years ago, but never again...and something made it come out randomly.

I feel like this whole idea is the thing that has been driving me to studying all your videos so much the past year. 

p.s. this post is mostly just an unorganized rant, it just helps me reflect now that i've typed it out. super fucking interesting post of yours though. like damn. zfgzfgzdfhzdhfzfhzhzdfhxdgjjfgj

[Leo Gura]

15 minutes ago, Dino D said:

I will now choose with 100% control (I guess) to lift my left arm

No, you are wrong about that. You actually have zero control in that example. The problem is that you're not actually being mindful of what is happening when the arm is getting activated to move.

If you very carefully observed the thought process happening which leads to the raising of the arm, you'd see that it wasn't in your control.

The problem here is that you're looking at the example from your existing paradigm of: "I have control". But that's just an unverified belief. You haven't actually bothered to investigate whether you have control or not. You just assume it, and so of course it seems like you do. Try looking at the situation from the opposite paradigm: "I have no control".

Try raising your arm again, but this time VERY SLOWLY, and notice that you are in fact not in control of it.

In fact, you haven't got the slightest idea of how your arm is raised. You have no idea how you are even summoning the desire to raise the arm, nor how you are telling the arm what to do.

[krazzer]

8 minutes ago, Dino D said:

but if I choose to lift up my right arm now, thats ,,me the thinker, the controler, the decision maker" ?

And who or what decides that you decide to lift your arm?

[sgn]

@Dino D The so called "you"/"the doer"/"the thinker"/"the decider" is also part of the spontaneous thought process. Everything happening in the head is just thoughts. ALL OF IT. There was no me deciding anything. That was more thoughts that gets identified with. What would a me be anyway?

Edited December 14, 2017 by sgn

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, bananak said:

My best music seems to come out when I am not thinking at all. What is it that anticipates the next note I play when its all just coming out?

Hehe, of course. Infinite intelligence is at work in the movement of the entire universe. It all moves as one. Your ego cannot do that. Your ego is very linear and limited. If you want to be maximally creative, you need to get your ego out of the way so that you are directly tapping the infinite intelligence which is truly running the entire show and is responsible for all spontaneous insight -- on which artistic creative genius depends. The genius isn't yours, it's God's.

The problem is that you've been mistaking God's genius for your own, you sneaky Devil

The Devil struggles to write good music. For God, it is effortless.

[sgn]

@bananak That's interesting. I've had dreams of music I've never heard before very detailed with many layers of sound that I think is really really good. Better than what I would come up with when I'm awake. Lol.

[Dino D]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No, you are wrong about that. You actually have zero control in that example. The problem is that you're not actually being mindful of what is happening when the arm is getting activated to move.

If you very carefully observed the thought process happening which leads to the raising of the arm, you'd see that it wasn't in your control.

The problem here is that you're looking at the example from your existing paradigm of: "I have control". But that's just an unverified belief. You haven't actually bothered to investigate whether you have control or not. You just assume it, and so of course it seems like you do. Try looking at the situation from the opposite paradigm: "I have no control".

Try raising your arm again, but this time VERY SLOWLY, and notice that you are in fact not in control of it.

In fact, you haven't got the slightest idea of how your arm is raised. You have no idea how you are even summoning the desire to raise the arm, nor how you are telling the arm what to do.

Ok, now ,,I see something" ... Now you explaind it that i see that there could be a possybilityy that that is true and that it is possible for me to get it. thx

[iTommy]

Now... it's always great to come to insights on your own, but I will just link Leo's video on "free will" here because it will give you broader view on your eh... issue. It might be easier to move forward once you look deeper with some guidance. Also you say that you're the observer, be careful here. Notice that it is primarily a feeling that makes you think that you're an observer, and also thought that suggests it being so. Might you be an observer, or maybe "some"(no)-thing that is beyond being an observer and perceptions? This one is tricky...

 

[Dino D]

13 minutes ago, krazzer said:

And who or what decides that you decide to lift your arm?

slowlly i get it (a little bit), also from leos reply ... but i will still answer from the as Leo said existing paradigm of: "I have control"... It seeams that no one decides that, or some intiligence on it's own without  controle of someone that I assume as me... ( logical conclusion, not recognition or realization of mine)... BUT, someone does it... when you say something, then there is 100% not control of what will arise in my mind, it arises because of you... but I dont know from whitch point or source the decision to lift up my hand arisess, who decides that, but its not the same mechanism as it is a thought that comes from something that you say... you say something, so you are the cause of my thought,,, and noone is the cause of ,,me" deciding to raise my arm... what am i talking now  haha, wierd... there is no me, but the arm is up, someone had to do that, someone or something had to, and it's a different cause than the one that put a photo of a elephant into my head (that cause was leo)... so there are infinite numbers of causes of my potential thoughts whitch there is no controll (7 billion poeple, infinite numbers of combinatios of happenigs and so on) but something tottaly different is causing the rising of my arm... AND IT FEELS LIKE CHOOSING, like I CHOOSE That, me, so it feels like I'm the chooser... But i also get the direction where you putted me... i have to continue my investigerion, to be more mindfull, to continue the inquiry and maybe i get you, in whitch ..way" or ,,direction" I have to look now...

[Dino D]

11 minutes ago, sgn said:

@bananak That's interesting. I've had dreams of music I've never heard before very detailed with many layers of sound that I think is really really good. Better than what I would come up with when I'm awake. Lol.

Yes, but thats still somehow influenced or caused from all the sounds that you sometimes heard... of someone would dream about music, and a complex one when there never ever heard music, or anythig like music, or if they would be deaf, and didnt live in a place where is music (so without an possibility of perciving music or sound in any way, not only hearing) and then dreaming of music or experiencig it spontaniously... that would be an authentic upload from higher intiligence.... (just ,,my" random thoughts about this topic)

[bananak]

14 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Hehe, of course. Infinite intelligence is at work in the movement of the entire universe. It all moves as one. Your ego cannot do that. Your ego is very linear and limited. If you want to be maximally creative, you need to get your ego out of the way so that you are directly tapping the infinite intelligence which is truly running the entire show and is responsible for all spontaneous insight -- on which artistic creative genius depends. The genius isn't yours, it's God's.

The problem is that you've been mistaking God's genius for your own, you sneaky Devil

The Devil struggles to write good music. For God, it is effortless.

Thank you, I'm seriously going to study this post for the rest of my life. It set me up so well, literally brought tears because so many things clicked.

What do you think is the longest amount of time you've ever had your ego completely out of the way uninterrupted? Seconds, minutes, hours? What were "you" doing?

[Quader]

If I try and think about nothing, I can focus on a single point and have no discernible thoughts for around 10 seconds. But then I realize, during those 10 seconds, would that not have been a thought about nothing discernible? The judgement of the quality or quantity of a thought is just another thought that is created as a distorted reflection of the past: Neither existed in the way it was determined, it just was. 

@bananak

When playing music and you have a spontaneous lick/groove/insight, you only remove yourself from that state of being when you acknowledge the fact that what you're doing is above and beyond the baseline expectation of yourself that you unwittingly put into place based on experience/memory of past performances/practices. The trick would be to allow those "highs" to return to your baseline without shocking you out of that groove. I'm struggling with that myself, but mostly because I lack consistent disciplined practice. 

[Nahm]

@bananak just chiming in...for what it’s worth to you... I’ve played guitar and sang for 2o years or so. I was once experiencing what you described, those precious minutes of ‘zone’, of unstoppable grace. Now, I do this regularly, for hours on end (to a relative degree of reference to experiences) and it is blissful and I would not trade it for all the money in the world. I feel, you are just tapping into a beautiful, beautiful thing. A daily (morning) meditation habit will change your m’f’ing life as a musician. You know, The Doors named the band after The Door of Perception (Huxley, I think) Check it out. Scott Weiland, of STP, he got it, and of course, many others. He wrote many songs in the ‘zone’ (The zone = no self in the way, just God flowing)

Do you even zone, bruh?

lol

Flies in the vasoline we are
Sometimes it blows my mind
Keep getting stuck here all the time

It isn't you, isn't me
Search for things that you can't see
Going blind out of reach
Somewhere in the vasoline

You'll see the look
And you'll see the lies
You'll eat the lies
And you will

(if I’m not mistaken, the ‘vasoline’ Is the one “substance” that is the illusion, and I think he incorporates the materialistic powers at large too)

[Girzo]

9 hours ago, Dino D said:

Yes, but thats still somehow influenced or caused from all the sounds that you sometimes heard...

It's much more magical than that. From where those intial sounds come from? How can they be recalled? Are they really the same sounds? Or is there something else going on? When you will see it you will be like: "OHH... man, how could have I been so ignorant?" This insight hits me sometimes spontaneously and then my body bows, a grin appears on the face, breathing changes and presence overtakes me. I love those moments. And I am probably still ignorant as fuck, which makes me more humble about this whole thing.

[Space]

@Dino D Try paying more attention to what is actually true in direct experience. Notice that in direct experience any type of thought comes from no one and nothing and falls back into the same place. That is literally what is happening in your experience. You might say, yes some of my thoughts just appear by themselves, but others come from 'me', 'I' am definitely creating these thoughts at will! But notice that every single thought is the same in that they all appear completely spontaneously from nothing. Where is this I-thinker? What is this I-thinker? Is there really an 'I' that is the source of thinking? The same goes for speaking and moving the body. 

Edited December 15, 2017 by Space