The Idea That Non-duality Includes Duality Doesn’t Resonate With Me

[Joseph Maynor]

This is the only claim in Leo’s new video that I find troubling.  It seems a little too cute.

Let’s discuss.

What is this “includes” metaphor.  Non-duality is not a container.  If we are talking on the level of thoughts — that’s not it.  We gotta look at what the idea of non-duality is pointing to and not get trapped up in the thoughts.

Great video by the way.

Dualities are created by thoughts.  No thoughts, no dualities.  If we don’t take thought stories as real, dualities do not exist.  That’s my take on non-duality.  Non-duality is reality before thoughts individuate it.  Yes reality includes thoughts, but what the thoughts say are a fantasy-augmentation to reality.  Therefore duality is not part of non-duality — they sit at cross-purposes actually.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Shin]

The idea that the body includes limbs doesn't resonates with me.

I find that troubling.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Shin

[Principium Nexus]

That's because ideas are part of the duality and you are viewing non-duality from an dualistic perspective too. Get rid of the ideas, non-duality just IS. Any thing you think of conceptually is not non-dual plus non-dualism doesn't even care that you don't resonate with the idea. It's your own personal problem, reality just goes on..

[Leo Gura]

36 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Therefore duality is not part of non-duality — they sit at cross-purposes actually.

Ahahahaha...

That's cause you're still a dualist playing a nondualist

God excludes nothing, not even exclusion.

Keep contemplating, saucy Padawan.

[snowleopard]

@Joseph Maynor  In a way, I agree ... however, in an absolute nondual state there would be no possibility of this relational experience. So nonduality, all that is, allows for apparent duality for the sake of this relational experience.  Realizing this, the dream doesn't end, it's just known as the creative play of Lila that it truly is, but free of the attendant suffering of not realizing this. Why the dreaming, is another question altogether.

Edited December 12, 2017 by snowleopard

[jse]

2 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

The Idea That Non-duality Includes Duality Doesn’t Resonate With Me

Any idea  about non-duality, no matter how plausible or how well it may be wrapped in good intentions,  will lead to confusion at best.  The mind intercepts the message and hijacks it as it's own, in an attempt to support and strengthen it's dualistic grip.

 

2 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Let’s discuss.

... says the mind.
C'mon, let's not.

Edited December 12, 2017 by jse

[Friend]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Ahahahaha...

That's cause you're still a dualist playing a nondualist

God excludes nothing, not even exclusion.

Keep contemplating, saucy Padawan.

>Saucy

[snowleopard]

In his own eloquent way, in the video Leo has just expounded upon the words of Lao (hmm, a poet could play with those two names) ...

True words seem paradoxical ~ Lao Tzu

[cirkussmile]

Silence is the only thing that can describe what we are trying to talk about.

Duality is a reflection of yourself. What's so disturbing about that?

Aren't you beautiful?

[Soulbass]

Everything is nothing.

So nothing is everything.

How could you compare non-duality ?

What bothers me is : why do we play the "forms/shapes" game ?

To be lost, and find back ourselves ?

Edited December 12, 2017 by Soulbass

[Rinne]

How could non-duality not include duality in it? Duality is clearly in the word itself non-duality. Lol. 

[Rinne]

Im playing around btw dont take what i say too serious. Most people tend to anyways. Ok im try to let this be the last bullshit post i post. 

[Toby]

 

[Dodo]

2 hours ago, Soulbass said:

Everything is nothing.

So nothing is everything.

How could you compare non-duality ?

What bothers me is : why do we play the "forms/shapes" game ?

To be lost, and find back ourselves ?

Maybe because there's just no other way.

Think dreams, imagine yourself in your dream tonight as your dream self asking "Why do we play this game of form?" 

Now imagine waking up and seeing that the very form asking the question wasn't even a form, it was just an idea, a hallucination, a dream. 

[AleksM]

Everything you see is a contrast, everything that you hear is a contrast. All of the 5 senses are relative to something else. A thought is relative to something else. Good is relative to bad. Bad is relative to good.

With the eyes open you see different activity fields. You see the activity field that is a lamp, keyboard, cup of tea...whatever that has a distinct boundary around it. You see different activity fields that have a contrast to them.

The ego is born out of the contrast. Desires are born out of contrast. You cannot get rid of the contrast but you can get rid of the self that was born out of it and remake it in a different way.

When 3 people look at the same thing or situation, they can have 3 different, distinct interpretations of the same event or thing. This tells you there is subjectivity at play.

Subjectivity is duality. Subjectivity = 4D, mental dimension. Without subjectivity life wouldn't be able to preserve life  and so that's why you got illusion. So if subjects didn't exist people, animals and other beings wouldn't be able to maintain themselves. Illusion is there and illusion exists. The lazy ass Will think that it can remove illusion forever, but he's only fooling himself. Illusion is there to stay, the only thing left is to deal with it, and you deal with it with the non-duality.

Yes, animals have subjectivity, but they are not as trapped in the illusion simply because they don't have a self-agenda made out of symbolic language. Animals don't think before they do, animals just do.

Now in actuality, everything is connected, there is no separation. Everything affects everything else.

Duality is contained in oneness. The best way to visualize this is with the Picture that is explained by Nassim Haramein in this video at 10:00

 

Edited December 12, 2017 by AleksM
grammar

[Nahm]

On 12/11/2017 at 6:58 PM, snowleopard said:

@Joseph Maynor  In a way, I agree ... however, in an absolute nondual state there would be no possibility of this relational experience. So nonduality, all that is, allows for apparent duality for the sake of this relational experience.  Realizing this, the dream doesn't end, it's just known as the creative play of Lila that it truly is, but free of the attendant suffering of not realizing this. Why the dreaming, is another question altogether.

Why the dreaming.....best question....follow the white rabbit...that why it is the pure nondual, the ‘knowing’.?❤️  All the ideas, all the words, all the knowledge, and all the psychedelics in the world will not reveal this - without the proper foundation. 

[Nahm]

@Joseph Maynor

Therefore duality is not part of non-duality — they sit at cross-purposes actually.

What do you mean.....”They”? 

??

❤️?

??

?⛈

??

??

[snowleopard]

@Nahm  Yeah, as for 'why the dreaming?' There has yet to have been revealed any definitive explanation for this, by anyone, that doesn't amount to speculation, philosophy and/or mythology. Maybe I'll find it in The Knowing Book ... And I've yet to ask the Mushroom

As for the proper foundation, I can lay no claim to that. If one goes by some traditions, it may involve countless incarnations in relational experience as foundation construction apprentices. Don't know about others here, but I'm not sure that trade has been mastered yet.

Edited December 12, 2017 by snowleopard

[Joseph Maynor]

Thanks for the responses.  I will read them carefully and formulate a response in the next couple of days.

[eputkonen]

On 12/11/2017 at 5:25 PM, Joseph Maynor said:

This is the only claim in Leo’s new video that I find troubling.  It seems a little too cute.

Let’s discuss.

What is this “includes” metaphor.  Non-duality is not a container.  If we are talking on the level of thoughts — that’s not it.  We gotta look at what the idea of non-duality is pointing to and not get trapped up in the thoughts.

Dualities are created by thoughts.  No thoughts, no dualities.  If we don’t take thought stories as real, dualities do not exist.  That’s my take on non-duality.  Non-duality is reality before thoughts individuate it.  Yes reality includes thoughts, but what the thoughts say are a fantasy-augmentation to reality.  Therefore duality is not part of non-duality — they sit at cross-purposes actually.

You are right...nonduality is not a container and it is important not to get trapped up in thoughts.  Also, dualities are created by thoughts.  No thoughts, no dualities.   I would agree.

Duality is a fiction of the mind.  We are not living in duality...it has always been nonduality.

The idea that nonduality includes duality, in a way, gives legitimacy and reality to duality.  However, one sees duality because of ignorance and illusion.  It never was real...just as a rabbit being pulled from a hat is not real...but it exists as an illusion. 

So duality, as an illusion, exists within nonduality.  There is only the appearance of duality (apparent duality) which is included in nonduality.

Much of the confusion comes from conventions of speech and thought.  Let's take a mirage.  You see water, but in reality it is light refracting off of hot air (on the desert, pavement, etc.).  As nonduality has no "other" or exclusion...so in this spirit, you would have to say there is hot air, refracted light, and the appearance of water.  It would be incorrect to say there is water...as a reality.  The illusion of water exists, but it is not real..water is not what is there.  This is not excluding or creating otherness.  It is just accurately verbalizing what is.

Edited December 14, 2017 by eputkonen