Rant

[Capethaz]

Too much mental masturbation in this forum. I think that it would be beneficial for us all that we stop with bullshit theories about reality, life, and start debate about practice and the path to awakening. If you don't practice DAILY the chances are that all this illusion of 'self-actualization' that you are doing won't do good at all for you. What you really want is peace, not money, not girls, not 'self-development'. You want become free from suffering. When you are happy you don't care about who's right, because guess what, you are satisfied with what IS. The way to get that is PRACTICE. So I suggest that you start learning about ways to get there, finding people who got there and listening to their advice. AND PRACTICING EVERYDAY!  

[RawJudah]

You’re so right. We have to live in the REAL world and come to terms with what IS (the present moment). I’m really grateful someone has come out and said this...

[Leo Gura]

@Capethaz Yes, daily practice is critically important. Without it, the rest falls flat on its face.

Then again, people who want to masturbate will find a way to masturbate all the same. A bridge must be built from regular life into hardcore consciousness work. It doesn't happen overnight. Yes, there will be lots of masturbation, but gradually it tends to auto-correct if you're serious about this work.

This forum isn't an endpoint, it's an entry-point.

If everyone here adopts a mandatory minimum of 1 hr per day of consciousness work (either meditation or self-inquiry or yoga, or whatever), that will ensure that the mental-masturbation eventually auto-corrects itself.

[krazzer]

@Capethaz Amen to that

[Shin]

Part of the path, almost everyone go through this.
Probably the sneakier part of it, because you really do think you're getting somewhere.

In a sense it can really help, because prior to that you don't know what you have to do, you don't have proper pointers.
So if you chase enlightenment by listening to lots of different teacher, at some point you will be forced to recognize the simple truth, which is you just have to be.
You can't understand that without a lot of mindfulness momentum, without hundreds of hours of meditation, the mind just can't grasp it (well he can, but that means you're not corrupted by this society, and even then it's hard ...).

So you meditate, you're aware of the thoughts/emotions, as the same time your mind thinks it's gonna have some magical answer from a guru.
Then you just stop, because enough awareness has been awaken, not because you got enough concepts or theories (you can go on forever with that lol).

Then it gets really interesting, reality starts to change subtly in front of your own eyes, because for the first time in your life you acknowledge you really don't know.
And this is exactly what every guru wants you to experience, full blown not knowing.

Since ignorance is seen as the opposite of being smart, the mind cannot fathom this, he will do everything in its power to refuse to not know.
Which is really funny once you realize all the wisdom from all the sages throughout history comes from the fact that they really don't know what they're saying and doing in the first place ...

 

Edited December 3, 2017 by Shin

[Joseph Maynor]

7 hours ago, Capethaz said:

Too much mental masturbation in this forum. I think that it would be beneficial for us all that we stop with bullshit theories about reality, life, and start debate about practice and the path to awakening. If you don't practice DAILY the chances are that all this illusion of 'self-actualization' that you are doing won't do good at all for you. What you really want is peace, not money, not girls, not 'self-development'. You want become free from suffering. When you are happy you don't care about who's right, because guess what, you are satisfied with what IS. The way to get that is PRACTICE. So I suggest that you start learning about ways to get there, finding people who got there and listening to their advice. AND PRACTICING EVERYDAY!  

We gotta keep our eye on the ball, which is — Personal Development.  Realize that the Mind will look for any way to distract itself from doing this work — including distracting itself with sexy theories.  How do I know this? — because I’ve been a victim of this my whole life too, until recently.  Theory can be wholesome, the problem is that the Mind tricks you into thinking entertaining theory is doing real Personal Development work.  It might be, but it's not always.  Theory can be the best tool but also the worst trap in this work.  You gotta develop the awareness to see this clearly or it will stall you in this work.  Remember — the Mind can be a sneaky bastard!  It will justify every distraction in the moment — so you gotta have the keen-awareness to be able to see through its rationalizations about why such and such is good or bad in the moment.  

Edited December 4, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[eputkonen]

4 hours ago, Capethaz said:

Too much mental masturbation in this forum. I think that it would be beneficial for us all that we stop with bullshit theories about reality, life, and start debate about practice and the path to awakening. If you don't practice DAILY the chances are that all this illusion of 'self-actualization' that you are doing won't do good at all for you. What you really want is peace, not money, not girls, not 'self-development'. You want become free from suffering. When you are happy you don't care about who's right, because guess what, you are satisfied with what IS. The way to get that is PRACTICE. So I suggest that you start learning about ways to get there, finding people who got there and listening to their advice. AND PRACTICING EVERYDAY!  

It is really not about practice at all.  There is a permanent cessation of suffering when there is the realization of who/what you really are (deeply, profoundly, and undeniably)...however, you can not practice to become what you already are.  We are fooled by the illusions of the mind and suffer because of ignorance.  The only way out of ignorance is understanding.  All you can "do" is honestly and seriously look at who you think/feel you are...and perhaps question, is it true?  This is not a practice.  A practice is a doing...efforting.  I am just saying be aware.  We have no choice but to be aware when we are conscious.  So out of curiosity just be aware of who you think/feel you are...and question the belief.

This is the way I point, because PRACTICING EVERYDAY can become its own trap.  Practicing can be an ego driven activity that reinforces the illusion of the "I".  Look at what "I" do..."I" meditate 8 hours a day.  Great, but that has not helped in seeing through the "I".  Practice can very well become a distraction...a way to keep looking away from the "I" and basic assumptions/beliefs of who/what you are.

Edited December 3, 2017 by eputkonen

[SOUL]

Anyone else see the irony in a "rant" about peace?

It doesn't really seem like you have this "peace" you speak of yourself otherwise you wouldn't be so disturbed by what people write in a forum on the internet. Take a deep breath, let go of expectations and desire so you may attain an inner peace and cease to suffer what others are doing.

Besides, how do you know what everyone is seeking?

Edited December 3, 2017 by SOUL

[Nahm]

Habit, monkey mind, the ego, desire, all of reality being an illusion...that’s a formidable path!  On top of that, it can only be walked alone, and it leaves us unable to communicate what we find to anyone. It’s understandable that a newb might need to be told what mental masturbation is. It’s supposed to happen just like it does. Makes em feel a little self conscious about pleasuring themselves in front of everyone. They aren’t conscious enough to know they are, so it takes a few reminders.  This is happening so compassion and love can be experienced. Ideally there’s a big smile & a lot of laughter behind saying ‘stop playing with yourself and get back to work! That’s the world we want, right? The one were we’re increasing our consciousness, and having fun? The whole process is really funny isn’t it?

[Capethaz]

@SOUL I never said that I have this "peace". I just presume that this is a meditation forum, and people here wan't to get 'there'. And to get 'there' is practice, right my little friend? =)

[Capethaz]

@eputkonen I do not agree with you. Without practice the odds are that you'll be in suffering until you die. Very few people awake without some form of practice. Neo-advaita sucks.

[eputkonen]

3 hours ago, Capethaz said:

@eputkonen I do not agree with you. Without practice the odds are that you'll be in suffering until you die. Very few people awake without some form of practice. Neo-advaita sucks.

If you look around, you also find many who practice many hours daily their whole lives (decades)...and still suffer...still seek.  Obviously, something has been missed here and it is not just practice.

Edited December 4, 2017 by eputkonen

[Toby]

Peace and happiness - if a state - is the same as a bigger car or bigger house. Same game: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_materialism

[Nahm]

@eputkonen there might be a real gem for everyone here...maybe you could elaborate on your experience of how you transcended the illusions of the mind by honestly looking at what you think you are...etc. How did you become enlightened without doing any mediation, self inquiry, research, etc - without ‘practicing’? Did you have an ego which subsided? Did you not have an ego much to begin with? I have a friend who really comes to mind. She’s having panick attacks about every other day, feels life is hopeless. I am at a loss as all I can recommend are practices of well being into practices of transcendence. What would you say to her so she can skip all the practice time? Thanks!!!!! ❤️❤️❤️

[Shin]

57 minutes ago, eputkonen said:

If you look around, you also find many who practice many hours daily their whole lives (decades)...and still suffer...still seek.  Obviously, something has been missed here and it is not just practice.

This is interesting, how could someone seek for decades by doing all the practices ?

[Nahm]

@Shin do you know of any such people? I do not.

@eputkonen Do you? 

[eputkonen]

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

@eputkonen there might be a real gem for everyone here...maybe you could elaborate on your experience of how you transcended the illusions of the mind by honestly looking at what you think you are...etc. How did you become enlightened without doing any mediation, self inquiry, research, etc - without ‘practicing’? Did you have an ego which subsided? Did you not have an ego much to begin with? I have a friend who really comes to mind. She’s having panick attacks about every other day, feels life is hopeless. I am at a loss as all I can recommend are practices of well being into practices of transcendence. What would you say to her so she can skip all the practice time? Thanks!!!!! ❤️❤️❤️

I had thirteen years of spiritual searching, but was not looking for enlightenment and I was not really suffering much so I wasn't trying to get out of deep suffering either.  I just wanted to know the truth.  I was taught past-life regression, various healing modalities, and I did meditate (sporadically - guided meditations, heart centered meditations, etc.).  I did not really care for meditation, so I did not do it consistently and often months would pass between meditations.  I never did self inquiry...I learned of that after awakening.   My practices were all ego driven...self-improvement and human potential.  I studied whatever seemed interesting...even magick (The Book of Abramelin, the Green Grimoire, etc.).  You don't get much more egoic than wanting to control the world.  I have a very wide band of general spiritual knowledge from this, but funny enough I did not study nonduality or enlightenment at all.  Even the day prior to awakening, if you asked me what was nonduality...I would not have had a clue.  After thirteen years of general studies, I hit a point where every new book seemed to just talk about things I have already read elsewhere.  So I gave up the search.  I quit reading, practicing, and meditating completely.

I have been fairly intuitive since starting the spiritual journey, and so anything I bump into multiple times in a short period of time...I take notice of.  I kept bumping into the name Eckhart Tolle.  I had heard of the 'Power of Now' but hated the title so much that I never read it.  I didn't want to read it, but would begrudgingly watch something - so I went to the library.  They had a DVD called "Flowering of Human Consciousness".  A talk Eckhart had given.  As I watched it, it seemed it was more of the same.  Be present...something I thought I was doing - even though I was very much in the head and thinking all of the time.  But then he went through an exercise to inhabit the body - to be 100% devoted to the experience of now.  I actually became present for the first time.  Thinking stopped, and in that silence there was only feeling and experiencing what is here and now.

In that moment of profound silence in November 2005, total stillness and presence seemed to come out of hiding from behind everything.  There was no future and no past…just what is – that is sort of timeless.  There was no “I” or identification with anything.  The senses functioned and so I saw, but there was no seer…no “I”…just seeing.  It was a direct, sudden realization into what is as it is.  It was nondual...no separation.  There was a clear and deep seeing through the false “I”.  At the same time, as it is connected and not separate, there was a clear seeing of the nature of the world.

I had spent years trying to let go of attachments, release myself from fears, self integrate, and basically become better.  I saw in that moment that those very actions were in part keeping the illusory “I” alive.  In that moment there were no attachments, fears, problems, sorrow, anxiety, suffering, seeking, etc.  They never returned.  I then read and studied nonduality to get some vocabulary regarding the realization and see how others talk about it.

Why did it happen?  I was ripe...and in being truly present (so there was no thought)...there were no distractions and a clarity occurred.  In the end, there was nothing that I did that caused it.  It just happened...of itself.  Like surprise...you can't create a surprise for yourself.  I clearly saw that is the problem with all practice is that an "I" is doing it and trying to get somewhere...without actually looking at the "I" itself.  Upon awakening, I clearly realized that all of that time people spend in the process of freeing themselves from bondage was the delusion of bondage itself.  We ask irrelevant questions and do a multitude of practices that only distract us from really looking at this "I".  I love Ramana Maharshi's teachings...simple and straight to the point - who am I?  He would never let people wiggle away from that point.  They would ask him about reincarnation and he would reply - who are you now?  I felt deep wisdom in this approach...not letting you look anywhere else.  The direct path...a path with no steps.  No where to go...just who am I?

I recognize the limitations of practice and potential dangers of practice.  So even when I suggest something that could be called a practice...self-inquiry for example...I point out that this should not be an efforting or doing.  We have no choice but to be aware when we are conscious...so just look at yourself.  Question - what am I...really?  I try to minimize the egoic action involved.  Also being present...this too is not a doing or effort.  We are making efforts (thinking) that take us out of the present (experience) and into the head (thinking).  So I talk about ceasing to do...again removing action and doership of the "I".  If you did nothing (not even thinking), you would automatically be present.  I try to be careful to not inflate the sense of "I" and doership...which is a danger of practices.

As for your last question...I am currently working with someone who has panic attacks just about every day, in constant fear, and feels hopeless.  I just keep pointing him back to this "I" he thinks he is.  He keeps trying to distract himself...asking questions that have nothing to do with the "I".  I point him back to "what am I?"  He later tells me that he sometimes has revelations, but recently said he has spend many hours and days contemplating "who/what am I"...and he says he logically sees that he is not the body/mind...but he still worries and fears.  I told him that he still believes he is the body/mind...that is why he fears.  His fear of travel (one of many) would not be if he was not worried about something happening to the body/mind which he is so strongly identified with.  All I can do is point him back to "who am I?" and tell him to be present (without referring to past or future or mental imagination...where can there be fear?).  Cease doing...and as you have no choice but to be aware...look at who you feel yourself to be and delve deeper (keep looking).

Edited December 4, 2017 by eputkonen

[eputkonen]

55 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Shin do you know of any such people? I do not.

@eputkonen Do you? 

Yes.  Many meditators, Buddhists, Zen folk, followers of Ramana Maharshi, followers of Eckhart Tolle, followers of all sorts of teachers.

They all practice various practices for years...and still suffer and seek (end of suffering, liberation, enlightenment, whatever).  If you look, you will see there are many, many who seek and few that find (enlightenment and the permanent cessation of suffering).

I had someone lament to me recently that he has been meditating for 30 years...for the past several he meditates several hours a day and on weekends he sometimes meditates all day.  He is probably one of the most devoted meditators I know of, but he still suffers and seeks.

Edited December 4, 2017 by eputkonen

[Capethaz]

@eputkonen You just don't know what you are saying.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Capethaz

[eputkonen]

37 minutes ago, Capethaz said:

@eputkonen You just don't know what you are saying.

We agree that mental masturbation is a distraction and will not help.