why is thinking not awareness?

[alyra]

aren't they like... y'know... nondual

 

no but seriously, I see some folk on here (and Leo too) go all on about how not-thinking is good or something. and I just raise my eye saying, what is so different between sensation and thought? what is so different between awareness and thought?

 

I guess it could make sense to desire separating "monkey chatter" from "awareness" but IMO I would not say either is "not thought" I would neither say that awareness is thoughtless or without sensation; nor that thought is unaware or without sensation; nor that sensation is unaware or thoughtless.

 

they all three are ultimately just fancy words to segregate consciousness out into independent identities, embracing the duality of our nature. I would agree with the idea that disallowing our monkey chatter to weaken our presence and consciousness could be desirable especially to people who feel as if they're struggling to find their way, but I wouldn't say that it's possible to cease thinking without dying. because thinking is a lot more involved than just pictures and words mussing around with our consciousness. I personally fail to find any merit in laying a divisive line between thought and awareness; they are very integrated in reality, to the point where they are not so different at all. 

oh, and I suppose there could be methods of meditation to become completely unaware too, but I have moreso heard of meditation seeking deeper awareness, not removing it altogether.

 

 

so... convince me that awareness isn't thought

 

Edited November 27, 2017 by alyra
thought one word but typed something else

[SOUL]

Awareness is the observer of our consciousness and thought is the manifest of information in the mind that awareness in consciousness observes.....

Edited November 28, 2017 by SOUL

[Faceless]

What is thought? In this understanding and seeing maybe we can find out what is not of thought. 

Make sense? 

This is very important for those who really want to live a holy life. To have a quiet mind. To not be dominated by the fragmented mechanicalization of thought/ego. 

This takes more than someone else’s conviction. To accept in this case implies to conform to an authority. This is something we must learn ourselves. 

Good luck friends 

 

[Leo Gura]

https://www.actualized.org/articles/grasping-the-illusory-nature-of-thought

Clearly you need to start meditating.

[Faceless]

What is Meditation? What does it imply? 

[Faceless]

We should probably be clear on what we mean by meditation considering that opinions vary on this subject. Maybe the person we say that to doesn’t know what that is. Maybe the person recommending doesn’t either. 

[Faceless]

I guess we would have to be clear on what meditetion is before a recommendation was accepted and utilized. There’s different types of meditation practices that have been popularized over the years. 

Are these methods an escape from the monotonous daily grind? Are they movements of concentrated thought? It seems like from what I have seen this is the case. These methods seem to be in the realm of thought. Mechanical, fragmented, measurable. 

Doesnt meditation as it is generally applied imply controlling thought? 

Is this meditation?

What do u guys think? 

Edited November 28, 2017 by Faceless

[Shin]

Because thinking is as much an experience as seeing, touching, hearing, tasting and smelling.

The only reason you might think it is not is because you identify too much to your stream of thinking.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Shin

[Nahm]

@alyra it’s not only possible, it’s ordinary. 

[Joseph Maynor]

One of the tricks of the Mind is to reinforce the belief that awareness is Mental.  It’s not.  This is a sneaky slight of hand that the Mind does.  Meditation will help you overcome this trap.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[alyra]

On 11/27/2017 at 11:58 PM, Leo Gura said:

https://www.actualized.org/articles/grasping-the-illusory-nature-of-thought

ah, I see, so thought is symbol, or meaning. got it! thanks, that explains things perfectly.
it's tricky, because as soon as we identify what awareness is, we necessarily have applied meaning to it, and made it to be thought instead. anyone who claims they know awareness has proved that they are talking about thought I suppose some folk like @Leo Gura and @Nahm like to say they've found a way to be without those symbols, and I trust them that it is obtainable. but at the same time I feel as if they pressure me that I must also seek finding that experience. er, lol, not-experience, w/e. but that's a tricky thing see, because to claim that it is worth seeking, makes it to be a thought, a belief, a moral judgement.... I do not seek to obtain "no-self" on the level that others do, and yet I still work to... er.... "persue enlightenment"

 

language is so tricky I am sorry. I had to teach myself to think by use of language at all actually.... so I struggle to use it to portray the thought I wish to... I often do it wrong. to me language is just so unnatural and clunky.

18 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

[a belief that] awareness is Mental.  It’s not.  

what duality?

On 11/28/2017 at 3:38 AM, Maxx said:

All thoughts are temporary. They come and go

ha! so is awareness. er, rather, at least, it appears to come and go, lol. to believe you are aware is a thought. to believe you can meditate to become more aware is a thought. (to become more aware - lol!) to believe that there is a screen and a movie projected onto it, and that you can shift your perspective to see that in a more aware way, is to in fact believe that awareness comes and goes, temporary, changeable, nonconstant. the constantness of awareness is no different than the constantness of thought, sensation, experience, whatever word you want to make up to symbolize some belief that you use to observe life with duality. it's fine y'know, no criticism, except that it don't answer my question  

[WaveInTheOcean]

Because 'thought' is an object. Just like 'music' is an object. A red apple is an object. The emotion 'hatred' is an object.

An object to who?

To you of course.

But who are you? No, really, who are you?

A body? No, a body is an object.

A person? No, a person is a complex, mental, conceptual object defined by history, beliefs etc. 

You are you. And we can call it God or 'Awareness' if we feel like.

(But God constantly tricks himself into believing he's a person or a body. Because existence is more entertaining that way.)

But not only are you the knower of all experience, you're also that 'space' in which all experience takes place (apple, music, emotion, thought, person, body). And actually, you're also the creator of all experience. But it's more 'entertaining' to forget that and instead pretend to be a poor little 'me'/'ego', who didn't choose to get born into this chaotic world.

[alyra]

1 hour ago, Maxx said:

@alyra I recommend to look inside and try to recognize naked, pure awareness first. You need to train that. This might take some time. But if you do it, you will recognize something in you which has never changed. Get familiar with that.

you just described a process of change, my friend.

[alyra]

1 hour ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

But who are you? No, really, who are you?

who are you? have you stopped asking yourself this? why? are you satisfied with your understanding of who you are as the answer? have you stopped searching to better understand who you are?

 

[WaveInTheOcean]

1 hour ago, alyra said:

who are you? have you stopped asking yourself this? why? are you satisfied with your understanding of who you are as the answer? have you stopped searching to better understand who you are?

I have pretty much stopped asking myself this question yes. I'm the process of existence. so are you. so is everything. 

but now that I know it's all a dream/game, I can still ask myself the question "who do I want to be as a person, as WaveInTheOcean in this dream of being a human living in this world?", and I don't really know the answer to that question, I don't really know what I want in life. Maybe a deeper insight into this process of existence, cos I think it can always be deepened. I have only scratched the surface. And I find it fascinating to dive into the rabbit hole and discover what's there.

Edited November 29, 2017 by WaveInTheOcean

[Key Elements]

So, the question is: Why is thinking not awareness?

Thinking involves thoughts. Examples of thoughts: I'm hungry. I'm thinking about eating an apple. I'm thinking about eating an orange. I feel sad. I feel happy. I feel angry. This is obvious. 

So, what is awareness? You are just observing without being caught inside your thoughts. You notice that you're happy, sad, or angry. You notice that you're hungry and crave an apple and an orange. Ok, so when these things happen, do you go about your day solving problems? Sure you do. You're just not caught up in your thoughts and making whatever you're experiencing and solving even worse.

Another question came up in this thread. Should you go for enlightenment? That is completely your choice.

[alyra]

2 hours ago, Key Elements said:

You notice that you're happy, sad, or angry. You notice that you're hungry and crave an apple and an orange.

to me this is obviously thought. thought can exist without language. looking at the apple and seeing it, as an apple, as something to eat, while concerned over hunger, these are thoughts. maybe they are not considered "monkey chatter" but they are still thoughts.

[alyra]

8 hours ago, alyra said:

ah, I see, so thought is symbol, or meaning. got it! thanks, that explains things perfectly.

in case people glazed over this...

[Key Elements]

4 hours ago, alyra said:

to me this is obviously thought. thought can exist without language. looking at the apple and seeing it, as an apple, as something to eat, while concerned over hunger, these are thoughts. maybe they are not considered "monkey chatter" but they are still thoughts.

So, what is awareness to you?

To me, in the daily life, there is a difference between keep thinking, thinking, thinking, continously, and then there is being aware that you keep thinking and moving on so you could do something else.