Who Created This Universe?(philosophy)

[DizIzMikey]

You know...

The creation of death doesnt sound too godly

Nor does rape or murder, hurting eachother

Stomach aches or pussy farts.. decaying flesh

The abonimation of a thought which was hitler? 

Do you really think the true god would create such a universe where pain and suffering is even just an illusion? 

This universe with words to me would be more closely related to Satan if anything.

Who else would create such a hell hole that has endless possibilities of illusionary torment?

God the nothingness you say?

What if enlightenment is just another trap of Satan???

What if the darkness around us is just a bottle were trapped in contained by Satan?

I do not think the true god would contain any kind of illusionary suffering in his realm, but than again... I might be wrong.

[Ayla]

The only one that can suffer is the person, never who you really are. 

Again that "I" is swirling around unattended  

[FindingPeace]

'Who' created it? As if someone needs to be assigned the credit of it.

Personally, I believe that universe was always there. No beginning, no end. Why does it have to start? For all we know it is a continuous sequence of big bangs then big crushes, then big bangs...and so on.. ad infinitem.

Does it even matter how it got here? It's here. It is what it is?

Why do we need a God to have created it? Why does it even have to have been 'created'?

We humans hate that which we can't explain... always needing to assign some 'certainty' to the 'uncertain'.

 

[DizIzMikey]

@Ayla Well maybe this I does exist... because I... I...dont know if its true or not because.. I dont know!!!!!! Haaaaaah!!!!! 

Edited February 24, 2016 by DizIzMikey

[DizIzMikey]

@FindingPeace it might matter why it is here the same reason people ask questions and than revolutions are started! Thats why!

 Come to think of it..not having anyone think with thought would possibly create a very submissive populace

Because if the populace was too fat and lazy to question anything, theyd be under total mind control... OH SHIT.. AMERICA! 

God didnt create the universe, the universe created god....hmmmmm

Why do we need a universe to not be created?

 

Yes we do hate what we cannot explain... which lead me to the horrible fucking wonderful conclusion of.. I dont know, maybe someone has reached enlightenment through thought such as the supposed illuminati website which I wont be sharing here, they seem rather hyper intelligent with their wording.

I dont know....meditating more on this very depressing "fact" 

 

Edited February 24, 2016 by DizIzMikey

[Ayla]

@DizIzMikey

Please, do not believe anything I share!!!! 

Look for yourself. Really look with honesty and maturity !

 

[DizIzMikey]

@Ayla i dont anymore lol im in the i dont know camp 

[GeorgeLawson]

I currently believe in God (by this 'God' I'm referring to a Supernatural Deity that exists independent of time and space) based on the following evidence:

-The Anthropic Cosmological Principle: The laws of the universe seem to have been framed in such a way that stars and planets will form and life can emerge. Many constants of nature appear to be very finely tuned for this, and the odds against this happening by chance are astronomical. 

-Objective Morality: If the universe was completely purposeless, then there would no grounds for morality. For example; we could murder our neighbour and steal their money for power. We could enforce our own rules on the world so they could justify our own selfish desires. So where does our cause for selflessness come from? C.S Lewis' explanation provides a clue to the truth that our sense of right and wrong is not subjective, but objective and independent of human beings:

 

-Ontological Argument: It is possible to imagine a perfect being. Such a being could not be perfect unless its essence included existence. Therefore a perfect being must exist.

-Causal: Something cannot originate from nothing without supernatural intervention, so everything must have a cause. It is impossible to continue backwards to infinity with causes, therefore there must have been a first cause which was not conditioned by any other cause. That cause must be God, or the Creator of this Creation.

-Experiental: A very large number of people claim to have a personal relationship with God. 

To avoid confusion as I conclude, I'm not describing a bearded man in the sky wearing sandals. I'm referring to an eternal spiritual entity. 

Of course this is merely my humble opinion, and I would encourage you to deconstruct it if you have compelling evidence to the contrary!

[Franek]

Yea, I definitely agree with George. I believe it is generally good to stay open-minded and saying "i know FOR SURE God does not exist" is also a mistake. It is also a mistake to say you know FOR SURE what kind of of God there is, like it is done in monotheistic religions. If there really is some kind of conscious, super-intelligent being operating in the universe, then just the assumption that we CAN understand him/her/it is questionable.

I would like to ask you though, George, about two of your arguments. First of all:

1. The experiential argument: although the fact that a large number of people claim to have an experience with god, does not mean "god" as they describe him actually exists. But I think it is safe to say, it does indicate that they are feeling SOMETHING, and that there exists something, but that thing is not necessarily a supernatural deity.

Take for example listening to music. Imagine you walk into a hotel and you hear a band playing. If you do not know that recordings exist, you will conclude: "There is actually a real band playing somewhere in the hotel". But if you inquire further, it will actually turn out it was just a recording from some speakers. Therefore, just because something FEELS like a supernatural deity doesn't mean it literally IS a deity.

2. Objective morality: I would say morality is prone to something like natural selection eg. the kind of morality that is not unselfish simply does not survive long enough, because it is unstable. People who can cooperate actually survive better and that's why we have the morality that we have.

But I would say morality is to some extent created by us. You can compare to a art: There is a lot of paintings which are beautiful, but they are all different. The might have some things in common,  but not one is the same. Similarly morality can have many flavours: the catholic, atheist, buddhist, capitalist etc.

The law in many well functioning countries is different. Yet they all functions well. If morality was purely objective, I believe it would be more like mathematics: there would only be ONE correct answer. But that does not appear to be the case.

I am open for criticism please comment if you want to, I am interested what other people think about this

 

[GeorgeLawson]

Thank you Franek

I agree - we cannot be rationally sure of something that is supernatural, which is probably why humans have been debating the God argument for thousands of years. 

For much of my life I came from the agnostic point of view, which is to say that it is impossible to know whether God exists or not. 

What pushed me over into the Theist camp recently was mostly the Objective Morality theory. I understand you should be critical of everything you read, but there's something C.S Lewis touches upon in his book 'Mere Christianity' that has a ring of truth to it. 

Of course this debate is about God, not religion (so let's not stray from the path as I'm weary it is forbidden to discuss religion on the actualized forum!) 

Yes, the Experiental Argument is probably the weakest (hence why I put it last!) Your hotel music theory illustrates that beautifully. 

But let's return to the Objective Morality Argument, as this, along with the Perfect Design Theory is one of the strongest cards in the Theist's hand: It's interesting you should mention Natural Selection, as that's one of the strongest cards in the Atheist's hand. As Leo did in his video 'Good vs Evil,' he described how a pack of lions in the wild survived together peacefully and therefore didn't require a moral code to live by. Their respect for each other was 'natural' because selfishness would hinder their evolution as a pack.

But then you ask well; why survive and evolve at all if there is no core purpose to the universe? Science does a wonderful job of explaining how natural morality might help survival, but it skirts the fundamental qualitative question; why? 

Plus, I'd question whether a pack of lions are supposedly 'peaceful.' They survive as a pack, but the males fight and kill each other for power. If this murderous power struggle happened amongst humans, which indeed it has many times in the past, it would be frowned upon by society as most countries have laws against murder for private gain. 

Therefore, what sets humans apart from other animals is their power to reason. This empirically verifiable fact can go two ways; either it:

1) Hinders our progress by creating dogmatic and religious thinking, giving cause to ask; why evolve such a mental ability in the first place?

2) It progresses humanity. This word 'progress' is important because if we are to say that something is 'progressing' then we must measure it against a standard. For example, a common argument is that Germany, as a nation has progressed since the rise and fall of the Nazi Party. Has it become a morally 'better' nation? If so, then you are back to admitting that morality is objective. 

I hope I didn't waffle on too long there! Please let me know your opinion

 

[Keyblade Viking]

14 hours ago, GeorgeLawson said:

-Objective Morality: If the universe was completely purposeless, then there would no grounds for morality. For example; we could murder our neighbour and steal their money for power. We could enforce our own rules on the world so they could justify our own selfish desires. So where does our cause for selflessness come from? C.S Lewis' explanation provides a clue to the truth that our sense of right and wrong is not subjective, but objective and independent of human beings:

Great video, I just wish he hadn't stopped so quickly and explained the trees of good and evil, now he ended up just briefly touching upon it.

20 hours ago, DizIzMikey said:

You know...

The creation of death doesnt sound too godly

Nor does rape or murder, hurting eachother

Stomach aches or pussy farts.. decaying flesh

The abonimation of a thought which was hitler? 

Do you really think the true god would create such a universe where pain and suffering is even just an illusion? 

This universe with words to me would be more closely related to Satan if anything.

Who else would create such a hell hole that has endless possibilities of illusionary torment?

God the nothingness you say?

What if enlightenment is just another trap of Satan???

What if the darkness around us is just a bottle were trapped in contained by Satan?

I do not think the true god would contain any kind of illusionary suffering in his realm, but than again... I might be wrong.

Oh, boy, I could write an essay on that, hell if I was good at writing I'd probably make it a book

Anyway let's start at the beginning and try to skim our way through as quickly as possible and without dabble in matters we/I know nothing about.

In the beginning we lived in the garden of eden (we are born in to it in our minds and this world should follow the same rules through laws of nature - As Above So Below), at this time we were full of life and no sickness etc lived on the earth because our minds wouldn't pick up on any of that stuff, instead we fed on sun light in our perfection (and remember that this world is a strange one, it's actually kinda like a dream).

Eventually we started to grow an ego and think about how everything should be like in the video above and we created laws of good and evil (which are complete bullocks) and as we started eating from the outside world (aka we ate in our egos, our laws, our fleshly pleasures etc) we forgot how we are nothing and became important and then our bodies deteriorate'ed.

Why would this be necessary? Why not simply "Create" a more perfect being full of appreciation who would never forget and abandon the truth?
Well that's not how things work and God isn't that kind of diety anyway who can sit there and consciously think about how he will program his subjects lol, he just is and his love animate shit inside of him in a way that our broken brains can probably never comprehend.

So now we get to fight and push to become our greatest selves and learn to appreciate it through hard labor and once one have reached heaven through that path and gotten married in the bridal chamber (Gospel of Philip) one will never ever go astray again but be completely full of appreciation while living in Love and Truth.

So we need the push and to evolve but does that mean this is Gods world we live in?

Of course not, we've tried to do things our own way creating a cancer consciousness driven 100% by ego fighting for itself and it's own pride and this is the "diety" we refer to as Satan and yes he does indeed rule the world, this is his world and so when people say "Beware the New Age!" maybe instead we should have signs saying "Beware the Old Age" lol, not that the new age religion is any better but hey, let's be a little bit hopeful about this new "aquarian" age.

Was that understandable? Set you on the path of discovery for yourself?

PS. The only "Enlightenment" that is a trap by Satan is the informative kind, if you for example take my words for all that and never discover it for yourself and make a new religion out of it Satan got ya and he got ya bad  

Being trapped by Satan in a container is not completely false though, that's his purpose, he have just been doing a damn good job at it and the other aspects of your being have lost their power unfortunately and now the container itself (the ego) is God rather than the nothingness inside it.

[DizIzMikey]

@Keyblade Viking what was the catalyst for the ego?

We ate in our egos? Indulged in ourselves? 

No wonder eating feels so grotesque!

So Satan must be a man with the biggest ego on earth as he does not exist, or multiple egos according to this theory? What does this deity look like?

So the way god creates things without thought might be flawed? 

Question, whether you are a follower of god or satan, in the end, does it really matter?

[Franek]

20 hours ago, GeorgeLawson said:

What pushed me over into the Theist camp recently was mostly the Objective Morality theory. I understand you should be critical of everything you read, but there's something C.S Lewis touches upon in his book 'Mere Christianity' that has a ring of truth to it. 

--------------

But let's return to the Objective Morality Argument, as this, along with the Perfect Design Theory is one of the strongest cards in the Theist's hand

@GeorgeLawson Dear George,

I would even say the Objective Morality Argument and the Perfect Design Theory are two sides of one coin. As I understand it, the Perfect Design Theory states the universe abides by predefined laws which enable us to exist, and would they be just slightly off, the universe would not have evolved intelligent life. Humans have no power over these laws and we are just at their mercy. In other way, we are completely dependent on whatever has made those laws the way they are.

Similarly, the objective morality argument means, there is a certain way of living that works better than others. Again, even if we wanted to, we cannot decide our morality, simply because there other types do not work. And it is in a way like a law of the universe- you can't do anything about that.

19 hours ago, GeorgeLawson said:

But then you ask well; why survive and evolve at all if there is no core purpose to the universe? Science does a wonderful job of explaining how natural morality might help survival, but it skirts the fundamental qualitative question; why?

I agree with you on this. It appears we have now understood that morality could have evolved, simply, by a kind of natural selection. But the question arises is: why should we survive? what's the point?

 

I see three main ways one could answer that question:

1. The purpose is in our goal. If we decide to evolve ourselves further, understand the universe better, expand our species throughout the universe, to progress, that will be the reason we want to survive. Like you mentioned, the question is: how do you measure progress? And I believe that is exactly the core of the problem. People measure it in different ways, they have different values which results in different moralities.

2. The universe has no purpose. Just because we can ask "what is the purpose of the universe" doesn't mean it has to have one. The question "why?" might be a feature of the human language used to understand humans (humans generally do things for a purpose. Generally ). But it might not make sense to ask that question of the universe.

3. The purpose of the universe is and will be beyond our understanding. It might be within the reach of the supernatural being we were talking about, but just like there is a cosmic speed limit (speed of light) there might be a understanding limit. Nevertheless, I still think it is worth trying to get as close to that limit as possible .

ANYWAY, going back to the original question: Who created the universe? I have no idea who, or if there needs to be such a being. But I am sure thinking about is fun.

@GeorgeLawson I wanted to ask you: What do you believe is the purpose of living? Do you believe there is something like this?

[Keyblade Viking]

8 hours ago, DizIzMikey said:

@Keyblade Viking what was the catalyst for the ego?

We ate in our egos? Indulged in ourselves? 

No wonder eating feels so grotesque!

So Satan must be a man with the biggest ego on earth as he does not exist, or multiple egos according to this theory? What does this deity look like?

So the way god creates things without thought might be flawed? 

Question, whether you are a follower of god or satan, in the end, does it really matter?

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by Catalyst but if you want to understand what Satan is listen to this guy who I can not recommend enough:

 

And no, Gods way isn't exactly "flawed", it's just the way it is, it's the way the universe work and you also become what you are meaning if you try to control people you will be controlled, if you love people you will be loved, perhaps not by those same people or even anyone outside of yourself but you will become closer to God which is love itself.

After watching the first video there is should be obvious why it matter who you follow  

And for everyone to lazy to do that, he/she doesn't... do it anyway lol, no short cuts or muffin tops here he he

[Keyblade Viking]

 

You need the bad parts  

[abrakamowse]

On 2/24/2016 at 8:13 AM, DizIzMikey said:

You know...

The creation of death doesnt sound too godly

Nor does rape or murder, hurting eachother

Stomach aches or pussy farts.. decaying flesh

The abonimation of a thought which was hitler? 

Do you really think the true god would create such a universe where pain and suffering is even just an illusion? 

This universe with words to me would be more closely related to Satan if anything.

Who else would create such a hell hole that has endless possibilities of illusionary torment?

God the nothingness you say?

What if enlightenment is just another trap of Satan???

What if the darkness around us is just a bottle were trapped in contained by Satan?

I do not think the true god would contain any kind of illusionary suffering in his realm, but than again... I might be wrong.

How will you grow up if you don't have any challenge? The darkness is actually created by our lack of knowledge.

[Electron]

My mother created the universe by giving birth to me!!

Edited February 27, 2016 by Sigma

[Keyblade Viking]

Just now, Sigma said:

My mother created the universe by giving birth to the universe!!

And she buried the seed of the Father deep in our hearts but if we let it grow we can surpass this world!

[GeorgeLawson]

@Franek Dear Franek, thanks for responding  

On 2/26/2016 at 6:19 AM, Franek said:

@GeorgeLawson Dear George,

I would even say the Objective Morality Argument and the Perfect Design Theory are two sides of one coin. As I understand it, the Perfect Design Theory states the universe abides by predefined laws which enable us to exist, and would they be just slightly off, the universe would not have evolved intelligent life. Humans have no power over these laws and we are just at their mercy. In other way, we are completely dependent on whatever has made those laws the way they are.

Similarly, the objective morality argument means, there is a certain way of living that works better than others. Again, even if we wanted to, we cannot decide our morality, simply because there other types do not work. And it is in a way like a law of the universe- you can't do anything about that.

I agree with you on this. It appears we have now understood that morality could have evolved, simply, by a kind of natural selection. But the question arises is: why should we survive? what's the point?

 

I see three main ways one could answer that question:

1. The purpose is in our goal. If we decide to evolve ourselves further, understand the universe better, expand our species throughout the universe, to progress, that will be the reason we want to survive. Like you mentioned, the question is: how do you measure progress? And I believe that is exactly the core of the problem. People measure it in different ways, they have different values which results in different moralities.

2. The universe has no purpose. Just because we can ask "what is the purpose of the universe" doesn't mean it has to have one. The question "why?" might be a feature of the human language used to understand humans (humans generally do things for a purpose. Generally ). But it might not make sense to ask that question of the universe.

3. The purpose of the universe is and will be beyond our understanding. It might be within the reach of the supernatural being we were talking about, but just like there is a cosmic speed limit (speed of light) there might be a understanding limit. Nevertheless, I still think it is worth trying to get as close to that limit as possible .

ANYWAY, going back to the original question: Who created the universe? I have no idea who, or if there needs to be such a being. But I am sure thinking about is fun.

@GeorgeLawson I wanted to ask you: What do you believe is the purpose of living? Do you believe there is something like this?

Yes, the Objective Morality and Perfect Design arguments dovetail into each other to produce the major argument for God's existence; Purpose. 

You say that 'People have different values which result in different moralities' but how do you distinguish between these moralities. By comparing two things you measure them by a standard which lies outside the things themselves. 

You're right in saying that 'The Universe Could Have no Purpose.' That is the hypothesis at the core of Atheist belief. But as C.S Lewis says; 'Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning.' If our intellectual capacities mean nothing, then they would never be able to construct this theory.

It makes sense when you see that if God created the universe, then he also created our power to reason. As C.S Lewis says again; 'He is the source from which all your reasoning power comes… arguing against the very power that makes you able to argue at all is like cutting off the branch you are sitting on.’

You're right in assuming that our understanding is limited. But if it is, then do we not need an Omniscient power more than anything to guide us? 

I believe there does need to be such a being as God, because without a being there is no purpose. It is pure nihilism and we may as well kill ourselves. But you're right. Thinking about it is bloody exciting isn't it?

So what do I believe is the purpose of living? I have to preface this by saying that I have been searching my whole life and come across many dead ends, but after 21 years on this earth I think I have reached a definitive answer: 

The Purpose of Life is to live it as God intended us to do so. He gave us free will so that we not just be a world of robots, but live joyous, exciting lives full of diversity. And you know what's great? He all made us differently, with different abilities. Me, for example, my individual purpose is to be a Writer and Performer as that's what I'm good at whilst someone else might make a great Scientist or Chef. God gifted you with a unique ability and it is your responsibility to cultivate it. And yes, free will also means we choose sin. We can choose to follow the Devil, because the Devil is real. He puts up all these barriers to prevent us from pursuing our true, authentic selves and distracting us with short-lived, low-consciousness desires like sex and money. But all that is only temporary and a distraction from the true purpose I've just been describing. 

I suppose having mentioned C.S Lewis quite a lot I should post up another of the doodles from his Apologetics Writings; they are ideal persuaders for the half-convinced. But remember - belief is a choice. 

 

 

 

[Henri]

Many layers of knowledge according this question.

The final answer according the rishi`s; there`s no creation nor creator.