Contemplation = Speculation?

[tyler7415]

I have been contemplating for about 20 minutes a day for the past 6 months and what I have come to realize is although I can explore, I cannot come to any conclusion. It's just speculation at the end of the day. For example, I hear Leo saying if the universe is finite, than there must be a limit making it finite..whats limiting the limit..and ect. However, I mean how can one even say a limit exists to make it finite. These assertions are just projections on what we think makes logical sense. Our logic could be completely flawed. I've gotten to the point where all knowledge is neither correct or incorrect. It just feels like mental masturbation. Isn't contemplation just speculation?

[Leo Gura]

Absolute skepticism can be good. But you have to be careful not to misuse it.

For example, why are you so certain that all knowledge is neither correct or incorrect?

Is it speculation when you get hungry and drive to the store to buy dinner? Are you just speculating that you could buy some dinner with cash? Or is that something you know works to keep you alive?

See, the thing is, no matter how much you speculate or doubt, then there is reality which gets your ass moving and doing. So don't sit around speculating about fantastical things, instead, observe reality in motion. Observe the real patterns. That is proper contemplation.

For example, when you ask a question like, "What is happiness?" that is NOT a speculation. Happiness is a word which refers to something concrete in your direct experience. So find that thing and look at what is really is. What is happiness? Like REALLY! You've felt it before. So what is it? Don't theorize. Don't go reading the answer in some book. Look at it! Or maybe it's all just an illusion? In which case, look at that! Is that actually true? Are you conscious of the illusion? Or are you just saying it's an illusion because some guy in a video said so and you are aping him?

Your contemplation has to be grounded in reality.

What we are interested in exploring the most is all the stuff you do after you've doubted everything as much as you can. Why do you still go to pee? Why do you still get angry? Why do you still get sad? Why do you still go to work? Etc. After all, if you really doubted all that away, you shouldn't be doing any of it. So if you're doing it, clearly you believe in it. Clearly you are a slave to that reality.

So far your doubt has only gone skin deep, even though it appears absolute.

If your doubt were truly absolute, the universe would disappear out of existence, and you along with it. And that would be the happiest day of your life. And it would be no mere speculation.

[Telepresent]

There's a different between making conclusions, and reaching conclusions.  Say there is a ball - the very centre of the ball is truth, but it's surrounded by lies.  You can either sit there speculating about what the truth might be, using all your logic and reasoning and so on (what I'm calling 'making' conclusions); or you can simply peel back each lie one at a time, until all that remains is the truth.

Truth doesn't need your mental energies in order to be.  Truth is prior, is prime.  Meaningful spiritual contemplation is the peeling back of the layers of lies, misunderstandings, and misinterpretations from your life; the recognition of falsehoods, until all that is left is the truth.  The prime.  If you have drawn a conclusion, if you have constructed a mental creation to explain something, that is not the truth.  It's a mental model/projection, and it may be a representation of the truth, but it will by its very nature be inaccurate - a flawed simulation, not the prime thing.  To get to the truth you have to peel that back as well.

And some of it, frankly, seems completely illogical and ridiculous.  Until you examine the foundations of why it seems illogical and ridiculous, and start to realise... hang on... this foundation isn't actually supported by anything else other than belief...

[poimandres]

11 hours ago, Telepresent said:

There's a different between making conclusions, and reaching conclusions.  Say there is a ball - the very centre of the ball is truth, but it's surrounded by lies.  You can either sit there speculating about what the truth might be, using all your logic and reasoning and so on (what I'm calling 'making' conclusions); or you can simply peel back each lie one at a time, until all that remains is the truth.

Truth doesn't need your mental energies in order to be.  Truth is prior, is prime.  Meaningful spiritual contemplation is the peeling back of the layers of lies, misunderstandings, and misinterpretations from your life; the recognition of falsehoods, until all that is left is the truth.  The prime.  If you have drawn a conclusion, if you have constructed a mental creation to explain something, that is not the truth.  It's a mental model/projection, and it may be a representation of the truth, but it will by its very nature be inaccurate - a flawed simulation, not the prime thing.  To get to the truth you have to peel that back as well.

And some of it, frankly, seems completely illogical and ridiculous.  Until you examine the foundations of why it seems illogical and ridiculous, and start to realise... hang on... this foundation isn't actually supported by anything else other than belief...

Imo, that's why I highly recommend psychotherapy to basically anyone on this path. You attempt to peel back layers, but you are still observing your life through your biases and beliefs about yourself. So the conclusions you reach may still be diluted.

[tyler7415]

Thank you for the responses but let me rephrase my question. How do I know that I'm getting closer to truth hood or closer to falsehood. Cause when I answer a question I contemplate, how do I know that answer is of greater or less understanding.

 

[poimandres]

36 minutes ago, tyler7415 said:

Thank you for the responses but let me rephrase my question. How do I know that I'm getting closer to truth hood or closer to falsehood. Cause when I answer a question I contemplate, how do I know that answer is of greater or less understanding.

 

Let me refine my answer a little more.. If you get to the point where you are contemplating your "inner demons", that's when it's important (imo) to find a psychotherapist. 

You could go on and start to contemplate what is truth? Not capital T - Truth, but simply the truth. Who's telling "the truth"? That's how my brain works.

Edited November 15, 2017 by poimandres

[Leo Gura]

51 minutes ago, tyler7415 said:

how do I know that answer is of greater or less understanding.

That is something you should contemplate.

The issue of finding truth is a very tricky one. It requires years of contemplation. Don't expect anyone to give you an answer because it's not about having an answer, it's about becoming aware of the traps and fundamental issues of how the mind works.

You should be EAGER to contemplate this stuff and find your own answers.

[Telepresent]

8 hours ago, tyler7415 said:

How do I know that I'm getting closer to truth hood or closer to falsehood. Cause when I answer a question I contemplate, how do I know that answer is of greater or less understanding.

As I see it, continual negation.  When you have an answer, try to disprove it.  Assume it is wrong, and work out why.  If it's true, you won't be able to.  If it isn't true, there's always something to peel away.  Until:

 

[Telepresent]

14 hours ago, poimandres said:

Imo, that's why I highly recommend psychotherapy to basically anyone on this path. You attempt to peel back layers, but you are still observing your life through your biases and beliefs about yourself. So the conclusions you reach may still be diluted.

You know you're the first person I've encountered here who's said this, and I entirely agree.  In fact I have a shrink, and I find my time with her immensely helpful in helping me to integrate and move forwards smoothly