How To Know The Difference Between Truth And Delusion?

[cetus]

I was just re-watching Leo's vid. 'Leo Does Mushrooms', He said something that made me think, that during the trip he would get some really deep life changing insights. Than look back at them a little later and see that they where no big deal. Been there many of times myself while not tripping. This is why I ask.  But looking back he said it was realized as being 'delusional'. I'm assuming that would mean when Leo became more 'sober aware', for lack of a better term, did he realize that. So the question is, what side of the fence is really the delusional side? Could delusion in that setting of altered awareness be perfectly applicable?  So i'm sitting here now contemplating, how can I ever know what is delusion from truth? Maybe everything is a delusion. Maybe everything is truth.

[Ether]

Real things - 5 senses and experience

 

Not real things - imagination, thoughts

[LaucherJunge]

I would say the best way to describe this is, that it is all a big delusion and you are peeling of one layer after another by the process of getting trapped by them of course, so it is all part of the big path I guess. I think those layers of delusion are indeed the truth for that moment you are trapped in them literally the truth, you just need them one after another to go on.

[Leo Gura]

@cetus56 Differentiating truth from falsehood is a deeply nontrivial problem.

I've spent the last 15 years of my life studying it. That's what epistemology is about. And I have not read a single book which accurately and comprehensively addresses this issue.

Which is why I am writing one.

It is the deepest problem that exists, IMO. And 99% of people don't even know its a thing. And even when they are told, they still don't know the depth of the problem. Even many enlightened people do not appreciate the depth of the problem.

[AleksM]

@cetus56

@Leo Gura

I had a lot of these experiences.

First: my awareness about a certain happening increases

Second: an insight in a form of a thought appears inside awareness

Third: I don't care, the thought content disappears.

 

Previously in my development when I received an insight I have contemplated a bit about it, it sucked me into it's content. It was like that:

Now I don't care even if's a good story. I'm like.

 

I don't know if this is somehow helpful but whatever. This is how it is for me now. It might change back to the way it was before but I don't know, it doesn't look like it.

[cetus]

@AleksM  I wouldn't dismiss any possibility.  This is more about true insight than a story though. We could all be so embedded in what we believe to be truth, that real truth may look like delusion. 

[AleksM]

@cetus56

Aha. I see. Maybe this Will help you. I have made a post in the past about hight quality and low quality intuition. Check it out. Leo liked it haha.

Fake insight =  it is slow in it's formation process

Real insight = strikes you like a lighting, it's complete and the formation process is not needed.

[Leo Gura]

@AleksM Yes, that's no-mind. That's good.

But most people are not there yet, and will never get there unless they are led out of the mind using the mind. That's the point of spiritual teachings.

And even then, the fact is you still use stories -- or differentiation of truth from falsehood -- to navigate everyday life.

For example, if I told you that nukes are flying here from North Korea, that's not a story you can ignore, if true. Which brings us back to the original problem. It's not a problem that ever goes away.

[Kserkkj]

@cetus56 It's proof that Leo integrated the experience. Once your state of being, frequency of thought rises, the trips will start making sense and you will understand how it works. During a trip all sense of location and time is dropped, therefore all your senses and thoughts become holisticly experienced, and infinity isn't an experience, the truth isn't an experience, it's beyond experience. But you can intuit it, and infer it from your present experience which always serves as a contrast to the truth the way I see it. Good luck!

Edited November 8, 2017 by Kserkkj

[cetus]

2 minutes ago, AleksM said:

Real insight = strikes you like a lighting, it's complete and the formation process is not needed.

@AleksM Yes I totally agree. It comes suddenly and is complete.

[AlwaysBeNice]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@AleksM Yes, that's no-mind. That's good.

But most people are not there yet, and will never get there unless they are led out of the mind using the mind. That's the point of spiritual teachings.

And even then, the fact is you still use stories -- or differentiation of truth from falsehood -- to navigate everyday life.

For example, if I told you that nukes are flying here from North Korea, that's not a story you can ignore, if true. Which brings us back to the original problem. It's not a problem that ever goes away.

Your problem is just the one you decide to think negatively about

[Nahm]

@cetus56 I would really love some examples of what was considered an insight and later delusional. I think your answer for this would be found in those specifics. Probably should take another trip and see. Find a buddy and get psyched!

 

[Nahm]

?

[Nahm]

@Leo Gura seriously....I can’t wait to read it!!!!!!

[cetus]

1 minute ago, Nahm said:

I would really love some examples of what was considered an insight and later delusional.

@Nahm I was thinking the same thing. What was that trip insight that Leo talked about?

[Key Elements]

@cetus56 This is an interesting thread. I would say, the Truth (nothingness / everythingness / God / Infinity / etc. / whatever you call it) is something we all have in common. If we all "experience the no-self," it would be very similar or the same -- because Truth is Truth; nothing goes beyond it. Why not? Truth cannot be debatable.

It's like finding a life purpose. If one person finds his, and the other person finds hers, that cannot be debated. It goes without saying that everyone will have a different life purpose; it's meaningful; it will last a lifetime; etc. etc. The same goes for Truth -- except it's much harder because most are not even bothered by it and lots of disagreements, instead of just saying, 'ok maybe there's something else, and I need to search deeper.'

[Nahm]

@Key Elements “Something we have in common” ?

[tsuki]

@cetus56 
There is no truth to words of the mind, they are just a linear, perspectival, contextual expression of the silent potential we call 'understanding'.

When it comes to insights, it is a change directly at the level of understanding. it is a refinement of our ability to access that potential.
Looking back and saying: 'I was deluded' is a delusion in itself because there is no pile of thoughts from which thoughts are drawn.
That silent potential, however, is not yours for you to say that 'you' were deluded. That potential is pristine, transcendental.

When it comes to words, explanations, theories, they are true in so far as they are useful. Their ability to change, the extent of their influence, their possibility to predict, is what makes them 'true'. That is, however, only a mere reflection of understanding that lies underneath. 'Delusions' in this sense are simply thoughts we grew out of, that do not have the power we need. All thoughts have the seeds of delusion in them because they are contextual.

Edited September 9, 2019 by tsuki

[cetus]

@tsuki That was posted two years ago but from where I stand today I'd have to say even in delusion there is some truth to be found and likewise in truth there is some delusion.  

Which direction is the dancer spinning clockwise or counterclockwise? Which direction is truth and which delusion? Maybe she's not spinning at all. That may seem like delusion but it could be the truth.

 

[tsuki]

@cetus56 Ah, sorry. Didn't notice. It was too good of a question to skip .

I always had trouble to make the dancer spin the other way.