Don't Bullshit Yourself: You're Not Enlightened. Neither Is Kevin Spacey.

[Bob84]

People who drink beer are cool. And people who dont are not 

[Toby]

@Ascend lol, if you don't know anyone that by your definition is enlightened, why are you comparing teachers and gurus?

[Ascend]

5 minutes ago, Toby said:

@Ascend lol, if you don't know anyone that by your definition is enlightened, why are you comparing teachers and gurus?

@Toby Because they aren't? And people seem to think that they are. I'm just dispelling nonsense. It isn't my definition. When you become acquainted and experience such things, it's pretty obvious who is or isn't. I'm sure there's lots of remote sages, etc in monasteries, temples etc. Maybe even some semi well known, but nobody I am currently aware of. You have to differentiate with enlightenment and "experiences of enlightenment". Many people have experiences of enlightenment and they teach it, but those are just brief experiences.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Ascend

[Toby]

@Ascend well, there is no perfect human being and no perfect enlightened being. That is just the mind. Of course you could compare two teachers regarding depth or your own personal opinion but if you cannot name any teacher or any example it's pretty clear that you compare teachers with you own idealized version of what a teacher should be. No one can match this of course.

[Ascend]

Just now, Toby said:

@Ascend well, there is no perfect human being and no perfect enlightened being. That is just the mind. Of course you could compare two teachers regarding depth or your own personal opinion but if you cannot name any teacher or any example it's pretty clear that you compare teachers with you own idealized version of what a teacher should be. No one can match this of course.

@Toby I just meant that it's rare. I can name historical figures, but no one i know of currently. Perhaps if i did more research I would find some.

[Toby]

@Ascend ok then give historical figures of the last two centuries.

[Ascend]

9 minutes ago, Toby said:

@Ascend ok then give historical figures of the last two centuries.

@Toby Ramana. Nisargadatta. And there's more

[Joseph Maynor]

@outlandish Trying to conceptualize Enlightenment and then clinging to that like it's the truth is a trap.  Look inside.  That's where reality is.  You'll see yourself grow.  That is the real meat of enlightenment, not some conceptual labeling.  The labeling is window-dressing, not the meat of the matter.  The meat of the matter is your growth.  That is ongoing, no?  Growth is not discrete, although we can conceptualize it that way.  The Mind has all kinds of fancy things to say about reality, but reality just is.  The Conceptual Voice is like a dialog box on top of reality, but it doesn't effect reality one whit.  The Mind likes concepts, so don't get sucked into its reality.  It doesn't authentically want you to anyway, it's just you gotta build awareness to convince and remind the Mind of that.  When you build enough awareness, the Mind cannibalizes the Ego for you.  Enlightenment might be thought of as this cannibalization process, although that's just more slapping labels on reality.  Reality laughs at our little labels.  The Mind is addicted to feeling like it knows something conceptually about reality.  This is useful in certain contexts, but in Enlightenment we gotta be mindful that conceptualization of the truth is NEVER the truth.  All concepts are projections of the Mind on top of reality, but these projections are like that dialog box I mentioned, not inherent to the reality itself.   You gotta know when you're in a dialog box and when you aren't.  That's keen awareness, or a piece of it.  Seeing stuff like that in the moment becomes like seeing through a young child's attempt to perform a magic-trick -- and what differentiates the adult from the child is increased awareness.  So, seeing is believing!  You can't unsee certain things.  That's how awareness snowballs for you once you start to cultivate it.  

Edited November 18, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Toby]

@Ascend well, we can assume that I don't know anyone on the level of them today either (might be a projection of course). Doesn't mean that there aren't some valuable teachers out there.

[Shin]

1 hour ago, Ascend said:

@Toby Because they aren't? And people seem to think that they are. I'm just dispelling nonsense. It isn't my definition. When you become acquainted and experience such things, it's pretty obvious who is or isn't. I'm sure there's lots of remote sages, etc in monasteries, temples etc. Maybe even some semi well known, but nobody I am currently aware of. You have to differentiate with enlightenment and "experiences of enlightenment". Many people have experiences of enlightenment and they teach it, but those are just brief experiences.

But why do you care ?

Yes, there is no way to know if Eckhart Tolle, Adyashanti etc ... are enlightened, but who cares ?
What is important is the message they give, the messages that resonates in your soul and you intuitively know are true.

Assuming what non-duality is supposed to be, it doesn't even matter anyway, because that implies even people that aren't aware of their enlightenment, are still enlightened, they just suffer from the confusion.

[Ascend]

3 minutes ago, Shin said:

But why do you care ?

Yes, there is no way to know if Eckhart Tolle, Adyashanti etc ... are enlightened, but who cares ?
What is important is the message they give, the messages that resonates in your soul and you intuitively know are true.

Assuming what non-duality is supposed to be, it doesn't even matter anyway, because that implies even people that aren't aware of their enlightenment, are still enlightened, they just suffer from the confusion.

@Shin You're right.. - to the general person, it really doesn't matter if they're enlightened or almost there. Still very useful and spiritually advanced. The problem is, like this thread's subject, that all of a sudden people are now claiming that all kinds of famous actors, dancers, etc are enlightened when that's obviously not the case. 

 

Edited November 17, 2017 by Ascend

[LaucherJunge]

@Ascend
The problem is where do you put the line? After enlightenment the journey still goes on, there is no end to it and before enlightenment the journey also takes place so where you put the line is pretty much just a belief, you are just discussing your believes right here, believes about words that are as unreal as physcial objects because they are made up from the mind.
What is for sure though is that Osho was enlightened, whatever you choose to define it as. Just looking into his eyes you will see the proof, his permanent conscious movements are so powerful that you can literally see that he is moving consciously all the time, with gentle passion in every movement.

Edited November 17, 2017 by LaucherJunge

[Nahm]

@Ascend I really respect where you're coming from. I'm learning something here.   I love digging into the heart of things and I can see you do too.  if you became enlightened, what would you then do with the remainder of your life? 

[Dodo]

2 hours ago, Ascend said:

@Toby

Yeah, but here's the thing. Interest in spirituality, or glimpses, don't MEAN enlightenment. Of course Jim Carrey has had glimpses. Of course most actors and singers, and musicians are spirituality advanced. But we are talking about enlightenment here, and it's obvious that you don't know what it is. Neither the guy writing the forum (I looked him up, seems like a good teacher though) nor byron katie, nor any of the aforementioned people are enlightened. Some of them are quite spiritually advanced though, I'm just discerning from "enlightenment". 

On 10/11/2017 at 5:47 PM, outlandish said:

 

On 07/11/2017 at 10:25 PM, outlandish said:

 

Wait one moment. Enlightenment is not to be achieved,  Enlightenment is the reality of the situation right now for anyone willing to notice. 

Now, are you not the one knowing your experience?  The one knowing the one who knows, or the one who doesn't know - that one is silently and eternally there and it's everyone's reality. 

So right now you are enlightened. Before one second and after one second you were/are no longer enlightened. Only now, not in the story of time can enlightenment be. ? 

 

[Socrates]

@Leo Gura How do you spot an enlightened person?

[Ascend]

48 minutes ago, LaucherJunge said:

@Ascend
The problem is where do you put the line? After enlightenment the journey still goes on, there is no end to it and before enlightenment the journey also takes place so where you put the line is pretty much just a belief, you are just discussing your believes right here, believes about words that are as unreal as physcial objects because they are made up from the mind.
What is for sure though is that Osho was enlightened, whatever you choose to define it as. Just looking into his eyes you will see the proof, his permanent conscious movements are so powerful that you can literally see that he is moving consciously all the time, with gentle passion in every movement.

I don't disagree @LaucherJunge Indeed in his earlier stages was enlightened, had a powerful presence, and that gaze. That seems pretty obvious. Later on in life it's quite debatable if you're aware of his history. You're also right, there are stages above enlightenment too. Ascension continues on and on.

 

41 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Ascend I really respect where you're coming from. I'm learning something here.   I love digging into the heart of things and I can see you do too.  if you became enlightened, what would you then do with the remainder of your life? 

@Nahm I'm not sure if this is a trick question. First of all, I actually do not wish I was enlightened! Why? Because we come from enlightenment, I just want to maximize my joy/success on earth. However, to answer your question - what would I do with my life? It wouldn't be me. It would be a completely different person, as I'm sure you know. It wouldn't be my individual identity anymore, so I have no idea what that person would be like. I can only guess.  But it's a truly radical departure from the normal view of self, the world, and God. 

note: Also what I would "do" wouldn't be important at that stage. It's about presence, awareness, beingness. Everything else would be secondary.

 

32 minutes ago, Dodo said:

Wait one moment. Enlightenment is not to be achieved,  Enlightenment is the reality of the situation right now for anyone willing to notice. 

Now, are you not the one knowing your experience?  The one knowing the one who knows, or the one who doesn't know - that one is silently and eternally there and it's everyone's reality. 

So right now you are enlightened. Before one second and after one second you were/are no longer enlightened. Only now, not in the story of time can enlightenment be. ? 

 

 @Dodo I see your point. That's a different way of seeing things. I'm talking about a permanent state that doesn't leave you. It is true that the Self is ever present, obscured by the clouds of ego and contents of our minds.

 

Edited November 17, 2017 by Ascend

[Toby]

@Ascend could it be that you read David Hawkins and now compare everything according to his scale?

[Ascend]

Just now, Toby said:

@Ascend could it be that you read David Hawkins and now compare everything according to his scale?

Well, my knowledge is a combination of many sources. His work is pretty good though. What's wrong with his scale?

[Toby]

@Ascend Well, I had the sense you were referring to it when you were talking about Osho. Well, I don't see anything wrong with it. What's wrong is what people make out of it.

[Ascend]

4 minutes ago, Toby said:

@Ascend Well, I had the sense you were referring to it when you were talking about Osho. Well, I don't see anything wrong with it. What's wrong is what people make out of it.

@Toby I'm not sure what you mean exactly, but yes I've seen lots of misinterpretations online.  Which nondual teachers would you recommend?

Edited November 17, 2017 by Ascend