Don't Bullshit Yourself: You're Not Enlightened. Neither Is Kevin Spacey.

[Forestluv]

The idea that "enlightment" is "this" necessitates it is not "that". How could anything not "IS"?

Let go. . . aware. . . all "ISness".

[outlandish]

12 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

The idea that "enlightment" is "this" necessitates it is not "that". How could anything not "IS"?

Let go. . . aware. . . all "ISness".

Exactly. Thank you for putting it so simply.

[SOUL]

@outlandish 

You are the one who started a thread chastising people who are speculating or suggesting they know whether someone is "enlightened" or not and you even are critical of the topic itself by calling it bullshit while mockingly refer to some trophy you made up in your own head you think others are certifying themselves with in recognition...... then you tell people they aren't and never will be. That they are falling into a trap, an ego trip and that it's hubris so are doing the very same thing.

You go on to  compare people and contend that we cannot be like them, so in your mind through your reasoning and you plainly show in this thread you are polishing the Dalai Lama's "enlightenment trophy" so doing the very thing you are bashing others for what you say they are doing. Now I'm not trying to be critical of or to bash you but I'm simply pointing out the behavior and how it is an indication of the inconsistency in your mindset and the distress in your inner being because if wasn't so you wouldn't be lashing out at others in this way.

So which is it? You can't have it both ways, you are denouncing this practice you seem to think it some egregious act but you also practice it yourself while denouncing others for doing the same. I hope you don't get offended by me saying this but you are being quite hypocritical.

[Zephyr]

Well that escalated quite quickly

[Nahm]

It’s a pointless debate anyways. If someone is enlightened, they aren’t caring what anyone else says. If someone says they are and they’re not, we all know they’re just setting themselves up for egoic disappointment and frustration. We’re all in a paradigm & process, and those are easier when we remember we’re all in this together. 

[outlandish]

On 11/11/2017 at 7:51 AM, SOUL said:

@outlandish 

You are the one who started a thread chastising people who are speculating or suggesting they know whether someone is "enlightened" or not and you even are critical of the topic itself by calling it bullshit while mockingly refer to some trophy you made up in your own head you think others are certifying themselves with in recognition...... then you tell people they aren't and never will be. That they are falling into a trap, an ego trip and that it's hubris so are doing the very same thing.

You go on to  compare people and contend that we cannot be like them, so in your mind through your reasoning and you plainly show in this thread you are polishing the Dalai Lama's "enlightenment trophy" so doing the very thing you are bashing others for what you say they are doing. Now I'm not trying to be critical of or to bash you but I'm simply pointing out the behavior and how it is an indication of the inconsistency in your mindset and the distress in your inner being because if wasn't so you wouldn't be lashing out at others in this way.

So which is it? You can't have it both ways, you are denouncing this practice you seem to think it some egregious act but you also practice it yourself while denouncing others for doing the same. I hope you don't get offended by me saying this but you are being quite hypocritical.

I don't think there's a contradiction in what I'm saying. I'll lay it out as plainly as I can.

There are people on this forum who are vocally claiming to be enlightened. There are also people on the forum who are more subtle about it, but reading between the lines, there are the humblebrags and insinuations that they hold themselves to be enlightened. This is the bullshit. My claim is that if you, dear reader (not you specifically @SOUL) think that you are enlightened, then you are lying to yourself and the world.

The idea of enlightenment as a descriptor of an individual is a delusion. There is no such thing as "I am enlightened". This is why, when you ask the Dalai Lama if he is enlightened, he will say no. As @Serotoninluv put it so simply:

Quote

The idea that "enlightment" is "this" necessitates it is not "that". How could anything not "IS"?

This doesn't mean I'm saying a person shouldn't pursue enlightenment. It just means that you're not there yet, and by definition, you never can be. And that if you think you are, then please consider that you might deluding yourself.

I'm NOT critical of the pursuit of enlightenment, I think that's an entirely worthwhile path. Enlightenment is a process. You can enlighten, and then enlighten some more, and enlighten some more. Enlightenment is the process of liberation, shedding the layers. But it's not something you get TO, it's not a destination or an achievement.

For the record, because I was criticized of "denouncing the practice, yet practicing it mystelf": I don't think I've ever said that I'm pursuing enlightenment. Maybe I am and just not admitting it. But in any case, there's nothing wrong with the practice of pursuing enlightenment IMO. The problem is when people hold enlightenment up as an accomplishment.

Also, for the record, I'm not holding the Dalai Lama up as the pinnacle of self-realization. He's just an example of a highly realized individual. If you disagree with this, no problem, just substitute in some other advanced spiritual teacher. Ekhart Tolle, Shinzen Young, Thich Nhat Hanh... how do you think they would answer if you asked them if they were enlightened?

[Forestluv]

@outlandish I've pretty much let go of enlightenment as a "thing". My mind and body now is now moving to just being in the space of the present moment. To be aware as every-thing arises from and disappears into a mysterious no-thing. It's much easier to do when things are flowing smoothly. I recently started dating a gal I really like and insecure/fearful thoughts/feelings have started to arise. Stories of what I should have done in the past, what could happen in the future. What if I become blinded by love and can't see reality clearly and she discards me? My mind is assigning meaning to everything and trying to figure things out. All of a sudden, it seems like I am back to the lowest level of consciousness.

[Blissout]

From the Manonasa: A Spiritual Autobiography by Michael Langford:

There is no truth in the commonly held belief
that if someone claims to have attained
the same enlightenment as the Buddha
that means they have not attained
the same enlightenment as the Buddha.
That is a false belief.

The same applies to someone who claims
to have attained Self-Realization
or someone who claims to have attained Manonasa
The same applies to someone who claims to be a Jnani
or someone who claims to be a Jivan-Mukta.
YES a person can have attained Manonasa, Jnana,
Jivanmukta, Self-Realization or Nirvana and say so.
The ego-mind invented the idea that they cannot say so.

The Buddha said
he had not attained the final enlightenment
until he had realized the Four Noble Truths.
That means the Buddha just told you
he has attained the final enlightenment.
It is not egotism for the Buddha to tell you
he has attained the final enlightenment.
The buddha is just telling you the truth
when the Buddha tells you
he has attained the final enlightenment.
It is not egotism for the Buddha
to tell you what has happened.
It is true that he had attained the final enlightenment.
In that particular case the Buddha stated it directly.

However, if you include all the times
the Buddha implied that he had attained Nirvana,
the Buddha did that hundreds of times.
IT was never egotism any of those hundreds of times.
The Buddha was just telling you the truh.

When Annamalai Swami was asked
if he was permanetely established in the Self
Annamalai Swami said Yes.
IT was not egotism for ANnamalai Swami to say Yes.
Annamalai Swami was just telling you the truh.
Annamalai Swami was just stating a fact.

When muruganar wrote an entire book telling you about his experiences
and told you in hunderds of different ways
that he had attained the final Realization of the Self,
he was not being egotistical.
He was just telling you the truth.
He was just telling you what happened.
He was just stating the facts.

When Lakshmana Swami
described his Self Realization
in the book No Mind I am The Self
it was not egotism.
Lakshmana Swami was just describing what happened.

When Papaji wrote about his own enlightenment
in his diary, Papaji was not being egotistical
Papaji was just writing a fact.

When nisargadatta Maharaj says
it only took him three years of practice
to realize the Self
that means Nisargadatta Maharaj just told you
he has Realized the Self.

Nisargadatta was not being egotistical.
He was just stating a fact.
Nisargadatta is just stating the truth.
Nisargadatta is just telling you what happened.
The same applies to all of the different ways
that Nisargadatta communicated his state
like telling you he has no body,
and the talk is occurring in your world only.

When Michael says that in January 2005
he attained Manonasa he is not being egotistical.
he is just telling you the truth.
He is just telling you what happened.
He is just stating a fact.

Would you like all those Sages to lie to you
and say that it did not happen,
just because almost every spiritual seeker believes
that those for whom it happened cannot say so?

Most people would answer that question no.
Most people would be lying.
Almost every spiritual teaching that has ever existed
in the history of humans has been for the purpose of
preserving the ego Illusion.
Those teachings are not for the purpose of
ending the ego illusion.
That includes almost all of the spiritual teachings that
claim they are for the purpose of ending the ego illusion,
almost all of those teachings also are not really
for the purpose of ending the ego illusion.

Almost no human wants to end the ego illusion
even if they lie to themselves and think that they do
want to end the ego illusion.

 

 

Edited November 14, 2017 by Blissout

[Ascend]

Fully agree, it's extremely amusing that members think they might be enlightened or that actors, musicians, athletes might be.  Not even sure where to start with this...there are too many misconceptions. First, no one that's enlightened is on an online forum. No one enlightened would be an actor or hollywood, that's ridiculous. Nor would they be obsessed with the body, or anything intellectual.

[sgn]

@Ascend How do you know? 
Btw I think you're very wrong at especially this part:

7 minutes ago, Ascend said:

First, no one that's enlightened is on an online forum.

 

[Toby]

2 hours ago, Ascend said:

Fully agree, it's extremely amusing that members think they might be enlightened or that actors, musicians, athletes might be.  Not even sure where to start with this...there are too many misconceptions. First, no one that's enlightened is on an online forum. No one enlightened would be an actor or hollywood, that's ridiculous. Nor would they be obsessed with the body, or anything intellectual.

That is not true. I know one enlightened guy who runs / did run a big internet forum on the subject. Also there are a lot in the show business that are enlightened or close to it.

[Nahm]

@Ascend what do you mean by ‘enlightened’? 

[sgn]

@Ascend They only sit in caves?

[Ascend]

@Toby @sgn @Nahm  

1. Nobody in show business is anywhere close to enlightenment. You lose attraction to material things far below enlightenment. Nobody enlightened is interested discussing purely intellectual knowledge (aka the mind) on a forum or otherwise. Who ran the forum Toby? (pm me if you want) 

2.  Enlightenment. Haven't you had glimpses of it? I've had many. That, but as a permanent state. Knowledge of self as awareness.

3. They don't necessarily sit in the caves, but they don't spend their time on online forums either. Specifically not "self improvement" "self actualization" forums. Where do I even start? They have no self. Nor is there 'improvement' of this Self.

 

I forgot to add. Do you think Eckhart Tolle would be interested in discussing things in an online forum? of course not. Nobody interested in "mind stuff" is enlightened. And btw, he's not enlightened either. Just saying though.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Ascend

[SOUL]

@outlandish  The practice I mentioned that you are doing is being critical of people suggesting they know who is or isn't "enlightened" and then go on to suggest you know who is or isn't "enlightened".

It's quite easy to feign "enlightenment" because there are dogmatic concepts, beliefs and mannerisms associated with it so that if someone professes them according to those dogmas it would appear they are to the others who believe those concepts of "enlightenment". The more comfortable someone is with conversing in those concepts and beliefs paradigms in the mannerisms associated with it the more "enlightened" they appear to be to those that believe those things.

Let go of the desire to discern if someone is "enlightened" or not, does it really matter who is or isn't? Does it matter if you know who is or isn't? What if I told you there is no such thing as "enlightenment" in the way it is often portrayed but that most everyone who self examines and self illuminates is experiencing degrees of a process that is "enlightenment"?

Just be content to work on your own inner life and not preoccupy yourself with who is or isn't "enlightened" or what is or isn't characteristics of "enlightenment" that can be discerned in others by observing them.

 

[Toby]

@Ascend totally mistaken. People have different personalities. Eckhart Tolle wouldn't write in an online forum because he knows nothing about computers. If I remember correctly he even said he doesn't know how to write an E-Mail. The one, who was running a forum (and was working as a programmer before) is an austrian guy named OWK Edgar Hofer.
Besides that there are many many people - actors, musicians... - that are interested deeply in spirituality. And my guess is that at least some of them are very conscious. I mean, Jim Carrey had his glimpses. Also there are a lot of people that appreciate Tolle's work: Susan Sarandon, Meg Ryan, Russel Simmons. Other musicians: Leonard Cohen, John Frusciante, Brandon Boyd. There are also musicians that are very close to Ken WIlber's work like Billy Corgan, Serj Tankian or the producer Rick Rubin. Another very famous producer (Ross Robinson) is even the son of Byron Katie. There are so so many that it is only logical that at least someone would be enlightened without "us" knowing anything about "their" enlightenment.

[ajasatya]

On 07/11/2017 at 7:25 PM, outlandish said:

There's a lot of discussion on this message board about who is, who isn't enlightened. Posters claiming they're "close" to enlightened, or maybe even "fully" enlightened, or is so-and-so enlightened, or is so-and-so not enlightened. Posters insinuating that they're enlightened, but not quite saying it.

Don't bullshit yourself. You're not. You never will be. This whole line of thinking is a trap. It's hubris, it's an ego trip. And it's making your journey more difficult.

Have you ever heard the Dalai Lama say he's enlightened? Have you even heard him say he's close to being enlightened? What makes you think you could possibly be further along the path than he is (for example)? Get real. 

The very idea of getting to enlightenment is a contradiction. Yeah you're so non-dual that you're past that and so you can be enlightened right? OK dude. Keep polishing your enlightenment trophy. Or your latest idol's enlightenment trophy.

all i read was "i am angry! i am so pissed off! those self-proclaimed enlightened dudes! damn!"

i'd ask myself who's the one thinking that enlightenment is a trophy

how do you feel? has life been hard on you?

[Ascend]

@Toby

47 minutes ago, Toby said:

@Ascend totally mistaken. People have different personalities. Eckhart Tolle wouldn't write in an online forum because he knows nothing about computers. If I remember correctly he even said he doesn't know how to write an E-Mail. The one, who was running a forum (and was working as a programmer before) is an austrian guy named OWK Edgar Hofer.
Besides that there are many many people - actors, musicians... - that are interested deeply in spirituality. And my guess is that at least some of them are very conscious. I mean, Jim Carrey had his glimpses. Also there are a lot of people that appreciate Tolle's work: Susan Sarandon, Meg Ryan, Russel Simmons. Other musicians: Leonard Cohen, John Frusciante, Brandon Boyd. There are also musicians that are very close to Ken WIlber's work like Billy Corgan, Serj Tankian or the producer Rick Rubin. Another very famous producer (Ross Robinson) is even the son of Byron Katie. There are so so many that it is only logical that at least someone would be enlightened without "us" knowing anything about "their" enlightenment.

Yeah, but here's the thing. Interest in spirituality, or glimpses, don't MEAN enlightenment. Of course Jim Carrey has had glimpses. Of course most actors and singers, and musicians are spirituality advanced. But we are talking about enlightenment here, and it's obvious that you don't know what it is. Neither the guy writing the forum (I looked him up, seems like a good teacher though) nor byron katie, nor any of the aforementioned people are enlightened. Some of them are quite spiritually advanced though, I'm just discerning from "enlightenment". 

[Toby]

@Ascend well, if you cannot see that byron katie is enlightened - even if her teaching method is not that direct - then I guess there is nothing to talk about "enlightenment" or "not enlightenment" imo.

[Ascend]

5 minutes ago, Toby said:

@Ascend well, if you cannot see that byron katie is enlightened - even if her teaching method is not that direct - then I guess there is nothing to talk about "enlightenment" or "not enlightenment" imo.

  @Toby So you're not even willing to question a guru's status? You seem very close minded. No I don't believe she is - although of course she is very spiritually advanced. For you to get the picture - of how exclusive and rare enlightenment is, I can't name anyone that I know of that's enlightened. That doesn't mean there aren't people - there are, just nobody that I know of that is.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Ascend