Struggling To Understand Evil

[egoless]

My main concerns about Leo's teaching of Enlightenment are connected with the Evil notion. Maybe I just need a clarification to more precisely understand what is the case. I understand that ego creates the need for Evil. Therefore, all the aggression and crime may come from ego desires. However I don't understand how murder or rape in it's all forms can be part of the same oneness. If you look at it as one then ego is also part of this one and that means that ego is also not evil. I can't agree on that because I certainly think that there is Evil. I just can't explain this in regards to Enlightenment teachings. Religion explains good and evil well. Why Enlightenment can't explain that. I certainly can't take the answer - everything is pointless... as legitimate. Because people killing each other is definitely something negative and terrible. Enlightenment however implies that there is no negativity at all...

[LaucherJunge]

@egoless
This is really one of the most difficult topics in my opinion, good question.
You need to aknowledge how subjective your thinking and the thinking of humans in general is, not only does everyone have his own subjectivity on this matter but there is also a level of subjectivity for the whole collective of humans as such, which also has its own good and evil.
If we talk about the highest truths we have to stay objective and that objectivity tells you that there is no boundries between anything, oneness doesen't just mean we are one, it also means good and evil is one as light and dark is one and life and death is also one.
So it is just a matter of perspective, even spiritual truths have different dimensions to them, sometimes positive focus is the right thing and sometimes it is shadow work yet fundamentally both are objectivly the same it merely is our subjectivity our perspective that produces those boundries.

Edited November 3, 2017 by LaucherJunge

[egoless]

If there is oneness in everything then that means that you are one with a killer or rapist or even worse... I don't understand that part and I think there is a better explanation for such things..

[LaucherJunge]

@egoless
The explenation is that the killer is not who is evil the circumstances, his environment, his conditioning and thousands other reasons made him do this, a being in a state of peace or bliss will not do such things. What would you do, if you were in the shoes of such a person, maybe you would be doing the same thing after all you have been trough?
Without the evil, people would not appreciate peace as much as they do now, what do you think make us stop those things like slavery and such? The evil comes back and back to show us how we can improve and become absolutely peaceful. The faster we learn our lessons the less evil there will be, so by fighting evil you will just produce more evil instead of going the path of peace, of non-violence.

Edited November 3, 2017 by LaucherJunge

[egoless]

Just now, LaucherJunge said:

@egoless
The explenation is that the killer is not who is evil the circumstances, his environment, his conditioning and thousands other reasons made him do this, a being in a state of peace or bliss will not do such things. What would you do, if you were in the shoes of such a person, maybe you would be doing the same thing after all you have been trough?
Without the evil, people would not appreciate peace as much as they do now, what do you think make us stop those things like slavery and such? The evil comes back and back to show us how we can improve and become absolutely peaceful.

See? Even in your explanation you indicate that evil is required for you to feel good. If there was no evil you won't feel peace and good. You still call all these evil then if it is all one why do you call it evil or good or peace at all? What about people who are born with maniacal deviations in this case conditioning and environment does not change much? If there is only oneness and it is all loving and blissful why do such people with such a devastating deviation are born?

[LaucherJunge]

15 minutes ago, egoless said:

See? Even in your explanation you indicate that evil is required for you to feel good. If there was no evil you won't feel peace and good. You still call all these evil then if it is all one why do you call it evil or good or peace at all? What about people who are born with maniacal deviations in this case conditioning and environment does not change much? If there is only oneness and it is all loving and blissful why do such people with such a devastating deviation are born?

No, it is not required to feel good, feeling good is required for people not to do evil things, which again are just evil from subjective perspectives.
I am no transcendent being from the 12th dimension, obviously I am not capable of total objectivity, but I don't need to, nobody needs to, that is the point of it and why it is objective and not subjective.
People with maniacal deviations are like a booster for expansion in the direction of peace.
They are born because our dimension has time, the ultimate peace has to be reached somehow, that is the point of time. Patience is pivotal for peace.

I also have a question for you. Are black holes evil? Are asteroids evil? Are comets evil? Are tsunamis evil? Are storms evil? Is water evil? .... Are those things evil because they kill?

Edited November 3, 2017 by LaucherJunge

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, egoless said:

Religion explains good and evil well. Why Enlightenment can't explain that.

Lol

Enlightenment explains evil perfectly. It's the simplest thing possible: evil doesn't exist!

The problem is, the ego doesn't want to accept that. Because the ego feels threatened by things like murder, rape, and theft. The ego's job is to be biased, to favor itself at all costs. So this notion that rape isn't evil offends you. Because you don't like the idea of absolute freedom. It's literally too much freedom for you to handle. It's so free, it will kill you. So you want to constrict infinity to a manageable, finite size which your mind and psyche can easily handle.

The cost of that, however, is that you are very easily disturbed and you suffer. As soon as reality goes against you, you cry and shout and get angry. That's because you refused to surrender to the fact that your very life is worthless and meaningless in the big picture. The whole point of your life might be to be a cum receptacle for a rapist, or fuel for Hitler's ovens. But of course you don't like that idea. It's too REAL.

Yet nonetheless, no matter how much you resist all this, the fact remains that reality has all these freedoms. There is a real possibility that one day you will get raped or thrown into an oven. And even if you don't, no matter what, you will die. So you will lose this ego-game you're playing no matter what! The only question is, will you resist the freedom of reality or accept it?

Of course there is nothing wrong, bad, or evil about ego. You can be selfish if you want. Reality doesn't care if you remain lost in untruth, or rape a horse. To reality, there is no preference for one thing over another. From the enlightened perspective, ego isn't bad or evil. Ego is confusion of the mind. And there is also nothing bad or evil about confusion.

2 hours ago, egoless said:

If there is oneness in everything then that means that you are one with a killer or rapist or even worse... I don't understand that part and I think there is a better explanation for such things.

Of course! You are one with all the rapists who ever lived, and ever will live. They are literally you, and you are literally them!

Which is why judgment of people is pointless and delusional.

Jesus told you to love people, and not to judge them, for this very reason. He wasn't telling you to be cute or lovey-dovey, or "a nice person" so that Saint Peter could let you into the gates of Heaven. He was telling you to surrender all of your attachments to self, until the point where someone could nail you to cross, and you would be happy about it, because whatever happens to your body doesn't matter. It's not you, and it will die anyways.

Enlightenment literally means: self-less-ness. No self, no evil, no resistance, no problem.

vs.

Self, evil, resistance, suffering << the way you live now.

Heaven is not a place you get to for being "a good person". Heaven is just the state of being without a self.

This is True Religion. Mainstream religion corrupts this truth because it's too unpalatable. The whole point of culture is to serve the ego's self-biases. So a truth like this cannot be transmitted uncorrupted through mainstream culture.

[egoless]

@Leo Gura All that you talk here. Why it seems to me that you did not accept it all yourself yet? You talk about all this - talk is easy but did you become one with all the repists and evil? Are you ready to become cum receptacle for rapist if that happens will you surrender to it? - this seems like absolutely nonsense. If the point of Enlightenment is to become one with all the shit that is happening in the world then from our perspective it  damn feels wrong. What if our relative perspective defines us and gives us the choice? What if we are not meant to be awaken? What if the freedom of choice lies exactly in that. We have a choice in our relative manifestation but there is no more choice and free will if you loose your face and become one with everything even the shitiest shit. If we were born as ego then what if the right thing to do is actually stay the ego and try your best to become positive being in this manifestation?

 

P.S. You mentioned Christ's words But... - not judging and becoming it are two separate things... Is not that so?!

Edited November 3, 2017 by egoless

[Leo Gura]

17 minutes ago, egoless said:

then from our perspective it  damn feels wrong.

Of course it feels damn wrong to the ego.

You're not grasping that we are talking about a radically different mode of living here. After enlightenment, life as you know it is gone. Reality has literally ceased to exist, you are dead inside. Like REALLY! Imagine that! You are a zombie inside and you will NEVER return to the old you! Someone could rape you, and you wouldn't care, because you've already died! Try to imagine that radical of a transformation. Imagine yourself not being human any more, but still appearing human to others from the outside. They will think you're a human, but you will know you're not.

I have done it before, and I will do it again. There is nothing better than death.

We are dealing with highly counter-intuitive stuff here. It utterly boggles the mind. It is totally unbelievable until you arrive there. It's such a deep mindfuck, the realization of it alone is enough to kill you.

P.S. They are two separate things, but once you've become it, you have no more need to judge it. The judging is what you do to distract from becoming it. The sooner your stop judging, the sooner you will become it.

[Principium Nexus]

Quote

The good and the bad in themselves do not exist. The good and the bad exist only in relation to a Goal, an Interest.

 

Edited November 3, 2017 by Principium Nexus

[egoless]

@Leo Gura What if you are playing with the stuff which is not meant for you? How are you so sure that it is not delusion inside the delusion then? There is always a possibility of this if you are Realy damn open minded. If you assume that there is possibility of absolutely anything than Enlightenment may turn out as huge BS in the end. I've heard that you asked Peter Ralston same question. What if there is something beyond? He laughed and responded that is impossible. Absolute means absolute. But what if even Absolute is delusion and it does not exist?

You mentioned Christ's words But... - not judging and becoming it are two separate things...

 

Notice also that you escaped to answer the question if you are one with all the Rapists... Why? If you already accepted that why is it still so hard to answer that question? What if I ask you worse questions? it will be even harder to answer and you know it.

Edited November 3, 2017 by egoless

[Leo Gura]

@egoless Absolute is Absolute. You will not understand that until you encounter the Absolute yourself.

By all means, don't take my word for it. You must discover all this for yourself. I am just giving you a push in the right direction. None of this is to be taken as a belief system.

Reality IS a delusion within a delusion within a delusion -- to infinity! That's what enlightenment means! It covers absolutely everything possible. You literally become conscious of everything that could possibly be. You become God. Your consciousness becomes so total, nothing else remains.

[egoless]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

@egoless Absolute is Absolute. You will not understand that until you encounter the Absolute yourself.

By all means, don't take my word for it. You must discover all this for yourself. I am just giving you a push in the right direction. None of this is to be taken as a belief system.

But again... You asked Peter Ralston that very legitimate question which you may have became victim yourself. Let me remind you. You asked- What if Enlightened person is already in delusion and one who is in delusion can not see that he is ignorant. Is not that the case with ignorance in this world as well?

[Principium Nexus]

@Leo Gura He needs to understand that all is relative. Our reality is completely relativistic, no true absolutes, no bounderies.

@egoless Check out the video! It helps to understand this.

[Leo Gura]

@egoless Yes, I asked him. And then I died and became God. And that is all that can be said about that.

[egoless]

@Leo Gura I want to say F you Leo but something holds me back every time. I will give Enlightenment another try after all this confusion it brought into my life...

Again and Again...

[Leo Gura]

@egoless I know it's frustrating. This stuff is very tricky to understand conceptually. It must be directly experienced.

• Self-inquiry
• Or, 5-MeO does the trick nicely in 15 minutes flat

P.S. Now you can appreciate why Zen master's speak in riddles and infuriate their students. They're not just being assholes, although some of them are

[ajasatya]

2 minutes ago, egoless said:

I will give Enlightenment another try after all this confusion it brought into my life...

Again and Again...

you have no choice! consciousness expansion is something the the Universe does spontaneously, whether you like it or not.

what did you do in order to come to be?

[Girzo]

17 minutes ago, egoless said:

How are you so sure that it is not delusion inside the delusion then?

It might be, but it's not a reason to trap yourself and live in a reality that you already know is a delusion.

There is a point after crossing which the Evil doesn't disturb you anymore. It becomes neither good or bad, it just is. I know it sounds like a bullshit, but it's only a matter of perspective shift. People make mistakes all the time and don't regret them. That's the source of Evil. They have their reason to rape and kill other people.

[Principium Nexus]

@egoless Watch the video!!

Edited November 3, 2017 by Principium Nexus