Why Some Enlightened People Seem Arrogant?

[kieranperez]

I really do agree with @Leo Gura's last point on over idealization. This work we're involved with is a culmination of so many different realizations, truths, things to embody and transcend, etc. One realization of who you are existentially doesn't mark the finish line of our work. There is no finish line. There is no one and only one "magic truth" that will solve everything.

[Alenka]

I can also very well imagine some enlightened folks, who are caring and all-loving like you say, but still behave in an arrogant way like you say for exactly that purpose : create this unease, discomfort around them to confront people to just that, the discomfort, making them face a reality they will have to accept. If they are enlightened, they

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 are then free to act however.

So they might choose this role, this way because it serves the purpose of whatever is happening. It might be their way to bring enlightenment.

I know that when I feel resistance somewhere when having a conversation, I will very often keep pushing and walk a very fine line between "playing the asshole" (from the other person's perspective) and "playing around with the situation" (from my perspective) for the sake of dissolving that resistance in the other person, in a playful way (again, from my perspective, I am sure it's very often interpreted differently but that is not my concern). And I don't do that with the intention of fucking with them and hurting them but truly out of care with the intention to make them realize that they too can "play around with the situation", that it's not a big deal, but still letting them come into it on their own (because in my experience it is more powerful realizing things on my own than getting it laid down for me). I know I appreciate it when I am confronted to someone like that.

You could also label it "tough love". Arrogance is just another label. Just another method

[AlwaysBeNice]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Being aware of a thing is one thing.

Behaving in a cute and cuddly manner is a totally different thing.

There is some correlation, but it's a loose one.

Just because someone is a good mathematician (understands math) doesn't mean he can't also be an asshole. So why do you expect that someone who understands Truth would immediately behave like a saint?

The problem here is over-idealization of enlightenment. Strictly-speaking enlightenment is nothing more than knowing what reality is. You are then free to act however. You could decide to become a cannibal and there would really be no conflict.

I don't know, perhaps it's more tricky than we think because it seems to be that also there can be different levels/forms of realization aside from the human expression as well.

I would think there is a strong correlation if there is a high sense of awakening, because it makes you so intimate with everything as well, as you know it to be yourself on a deep level.

And naturally you would not hurt yourself, i.e. not hitting yourself on the head with hammer, but instead chose actions that you naturally prefer, for yourself and the so called others.

So I think it depends on the level or deepness of realization, and the acclimatization to it, otherwise I don't see how someone might act unwholesome.

But still people can have radically different views on what they belief should serve a human being and they can lack knowledge, so they can still act odd in that sense, but there should be no hate or judgment involved afaik.

[Monkey-man]

Surely they are free to behave in authentic way and play like they are arrogant for some deep purposes. But I rather meant that enlightened people still may have discomfort, negativity and lack harmony in their own minds, and be non-free from judgements and neurosis, which in turn leads to arrogance.

Coz you know after Leo's videos, I thought of enlightenment as a panacea from all human troubles  

Also, when I play sports games I feel like enlightened and very conscious because of 100% presence in the moment. Can we say that it is any similar state to enlightenment? 

 

Edited November 1, 2017 by Monkey-man

[Yellow]

On 10/31/2017 at 0:15 AM, Monkey-man said:

If enlightenment suppose to make people loving and caring to the whole universe, why I see so many enlightened people who talks about enlightenment but seem so arrogant, lofty and even selfish?

Many of them are probably not enlightened, but dogmatic about their own beliefs and opinions. Or they have some other agenda, like making money of the spirituality niche

 

But for the ones that are enlightened and behave like shit... I think it's because they are highly developed in the "waking up" but poorly developed on the "growing up".
You might want to read the Spiral Dynamics book, or watch Leo's video about it... or both

 

[Toby]

11 hours ago, Key Elements said:

They're testing you. Some monks do that in a cunning way to see what level you're on. They have to deal with all kinds of people coming to them.

(You know, as Leo like to say it, Zen stick slap. ?)

Yes and no. Some are full of sh*t and are not "testing" students. One example is a german zen priest (I don't know if he was acting as a teacher though, but he was practising since 1977) that just got sent to prison for 7 years for sexual abuse of children. And unfortunately there are many many cases like that where "teachers" exploit their position for their own gratification.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Toby

[Key Elements]

5 hours ago, Toby said:

Yes and no. Some are full of sh*t and are not "testing" students. One example is a german zen priest (I don't know if he was acting as a teacher though, but he was practising since 1977) that just got sent to prison for 7 years for sexual abuse of children. And unfortunately there are many many cases like that where "teachers" exploit their position for their own gratification.

Well no, I'm not talking about those cases. Yeah, one has to be careful and not just go with anyone, but unfortunately, sometimes a person is unlucky. If he's a criminal, he's not the one.

I'm talking about those (monks/gurus/priests/etc) who try to know you before they try to give advice. You know, if they have to deal with you one-on-one. For example, I knew someone who has a guru as a teacher. (Took place when I was working for a school in India.) I started speaking to her about deeper topics, and she was honest enough to say that she's not ready for those topics. She also told me that her guru knew that she wasn't ready. I met a monk who didn't go into deeper topics right away. He asked me all kinds of questions first.

I think I know why they do this. We keep talking about experiencing enlightenment and having samadi experiences. That's fine. But, I don't know if anyone here has had experience of life being a "school." That you got to learn all your lessons first before moving on. Leo talks about it in his blog in one of his articles. To me, it does make sense that life is a school. Just look at Maslow's pyramid. Self-transendence appears at the tippy-top.