All Roads Lead To Rome?

[phoenix666]

I know, just mental gymnastics. but this came to my mind lately and I thought I could share it with you.

enlightenment is this one big thing all spirituality, religions and art is finally all about. there is no one way to get to it, there are infinite paths. (or all paths are actually one and the same) 

fully surrender, fully detach (and fully integrate), love, letting go, silence, no thoughts, separation from the self (and union with everything), death, rebirth, compassion, concentration, expansion. aren't those all different forms in which one can pursue enlightenment? 

there is no good or bad, we only project that categorization. but it's more enjoyable to walk the path with the just listed 'tools' nonetheless. I was just wondering, because in non duality opposites become one and the same, is it then possible to become enlightened through the opposites (the 'bad' versions) as well? that would explain why there are stories about people that suffered immensely right before they became enlightened. like didn't Eckart Tolle become enlightened out of extreme pain?

[cirkussmile]

Yes. Suffering is a great tool. In fact, every path is suffering in some form

But don't get this wrong. There are unlimited wrong paths to take. For example, if you don't care about meditation and always taking the easy way of then you can't expect to self realize. 

[Dodo]

8 hours ago, cirkussmile said:

Yes. Suffering is a great tool. In fact, every path is suffering in some form

But don't get this wrong. There are unlimited wrong paths to take. For example, if you don't care about meditation and always taking the easy way of then you can't expect to self realize. 

How is this true? Is this not one of the human limiting beliefs that we need all the hussle and tussle in order to "deserve"  something of value?

What if everything is meditation, including the hard and easy paths? What is meditation.. 

Does any situation exist outside truth? Easy path, Hard path, walking any of those you can still observe and look for the space of knowing in which it happens. 

Truth is Pathless! The paths are for the movie's sake. The screen is the same always and present in easy or hard paths.

@phoenix666I would not say all paths lead to Rome, but perhaps all paths are in Rome already :-D What's left is to surrender to Rome and it's eternal unchanging nature. No matter what.

 

Honing in on the unchanging space of now can be done even while eating cheetos on the couch @cirkussmile its not like the now dissappears when you're not in meditative posture. It can be done even while writing an Actualized.org forum post.

It can be done always.

 

Edited October 30, 2017 by Dodo

[phoenix666]

@cirkussmile I've become aware of my suffering. I think that's the first step towards something.

@Dodo I like your thoughts, especially the one with all paths already being in Rome well said! what you wrote is very beautiful. but in practice, and now I can only speak for myself: this wouldn't work for me. I want to live a mindful, compassionate and conscious life. sitting down and meditating, doing yoga, contemplating, talking to people about their feelings, facing my own emotions, journaling and consciousness work like that helps me becoming more mindful. if I don't do all those things, I just slip back into unconsciousness. like it happened before when I stopped doing 'enlightenment work' or practice. in practice I would just return to my old life, chasing success, validation and desperately run from one shortsighted gratification to another. and that was not a happy place to live at all..

[Dodo]

1 minute ago, phoenix666 said:

@cirkussmile I've become aware of my suffering. I think that's the first step towards something.

@Dodo I like your thoughts, especially the one with all paths already being in Rome well said! what you wrote is very beautiful. but in practice, and now I can only speak for myself: this wouldn't work for me. I want to live a mindful, compassionate and conscious life. sitting down and meditating, doing yoga, contemplating, talking to people about their feelings, facing my own emotions, journaling and consciousness work like that helps me becoming more mindful. if I don't do all those things, I just slip back into unconsciousness. like it happened before when I stopped doing 'enlightenment work' or practice. in practice I would just return to my old life, chasing success, validation and desperately run from one shortsighted gratification to another. and that was not a happy place to live at all..

I hear you, but once you know where to look, every experience can be practice - then we can get soooo much more progress, otherwise, as Leo said, 30mins-1hour a day of meditation isn't enough. 

It's not like you can forget that the now is here. For me it's about incorporating the practice so you can do it 25/8 whatever is happening. Ofcourse in formal meditation, one can go deeper, but what is deep anyway. If my ego wants to be the "deepest" meditator, perhaps then I would want that. 

I will quote someone not usually quoted, but he is profound nonetheless - "Follow what excites you" - Bashar

Let's say, You're in Rome, but you might still prefer one road in there better than another  

 

[Leo Gura]

@phoenix666 There are definitely some ways which are objectively more effective than others.

The trick is, discovering those ways, and then making sure they actually work for you.

Just because a method is highly effective on the average population, doesn't mean it will be effective for you.

Your cultural upbringing plays a big part is how effective some methods will be. Enlightenment teachings must always be tailored to the culture and the era of the audience.

Teaching enlightenment to a scientifically-inclined urban Westerner is very different than teaching enlightenment to a rural Hindu.

[Toby]

Reminds me of that

 

[Dodo]

22 minutes ago, Toby said:

Reminds me of that

 

 

Yeah I like that, but that's why I said that they are already in Rome. It's not like just because they don't lead to Rome you shouldn't walk them. There is nothing else to do  It's not like the shoe is walking away from the shoe if it walks a path. No... The shoe is the shoe if it walks or if it doesn't.

As long as it doesn't look for itself at the end of the road, but it knows it already is the shoe while on the road, it can walk any road it freakin wants! Now that's freedom

ps: I took rat poison to find rome at the end of a tunnel, biggest mistake ever. All because I had this belief I am attached to the body being alive. I'm a bad bad ego. Stupid Ego that doesn't know it's already in Rome! So nowhere to go <3 namaste

Edited October 30, 2017 by Dodo

[Nahm]

@phoenix666 i really like the when in Rome. Do what we would do when we would do it, now. Right? It’s gonna be now for a while. Lol  ❤️ Reminds me of the little path that goes out my front door, around the house, and back to the front door. The other day I saw it and was like, wow. 

[phoenix666]

@Dodo oh, ok, now I get what you meant. and yeah, you're right about that. it's a bit advanced. I think at the beginning it's important to build the habit, so that momentum builds up. after a while of meditation practice, awareness can percolate into daily life. that's actually what I'm trying to do lately. I still keep up my yoga/meditation/journaling practice. but I try more and more to expand mindfulness into every aspect of my life. so challenging thou. I keep forgetting...

@Leo Gura yeah, I can see the importance of cultural upbringing. also of individual life experiences, shadow and lifestyle. I think the best is developing a big picture understanding, building up a broad basis. then picking out the things which work best for oneself. and adapting it from time to time, always growing. that's why I like your approach! it's like a meta-analysis. takes the best bits out of every approach.

@Toby love the analogy with the shoe I know I know, nowhere to go.. I already am.. but honestly: until you get there (in the sense that you see that you already are it) you look for it, you search..you walk the path until it hits you and you feel  that there is in fact, nowhere to go

@Nahm like the hero's journey. ends where it starts. it remains the same. but everything is oh so different <3 love the paradox!

Edited October 31, 2017 by phoenix666

[Forestluv]

On 10/30/2017 at 3:16 AM, phoenix666 said:

enlightenment is this one big thing all spirituality, religions and art is finally all about. there is no one way to get to it, there are infinite paths. (or all paths are actually one and the same) 

there is no good or bad, we only project that categorization. but it's more enjoyable to walk the path with the just listed 'tools' nonetheless. I was just wondering, because in non duality opposites become one and the same, is it then possible to become enlightened through the opposites (the 'bad' versions) as well? that would explain why there are stories about people that suffered immensely right before they became enlightened. like didn't Eckart Tolle become enlightened out of extreme pain?

I'm no expert and this is prolly enlightenment 101. . .

The default setting for my mind is that enlightenment is a "thing", an "it", an "event", a "destination", a "process".  My glimpses into nonduality is "it" just "is" - it's all and nothing of that (and this is coming from someone who for 20 years of my search hated when people talked liked that).

As well, in my glimpses into nonduality - there is no "one" and "the same". Everything just "IS". There is "ISness" - I can't detach from it or escape from it - yet I can lose my awareness of it. When I am in a mindset attached to definitions, I'm generally in a low state of awareness. When I am chasing girls on Tinder, I am generally in a low state of awareness - this activity is also "IS" - the same "IS" as meditating at Machu Picchu, yet the chances of being that awareness of ISness is much lower when chasing girls on Tinder. For me, I have a higher chance by "getting struck" by awareness when I am not conceptualizing, attached to thought or distracted. 

Generally when I read or watch spiritual teachings, my mind is in "learning mode" with thought, concepts, curiosity etc. It's the teachings that break through that and stop me that are effective. For example, during Leo's latest video, I was watching very pensively. All of a sudden, he became very animated - waving his hands and saying with emotion something like "This is actual!! Right here!!! Me, doing this!! NOW, NOW!! THIS!!. . . ". It broke me out of my thinking and I had a glimpse. As well, Richard Spira relaxes my mind and gently guides me to a space where I might get struck by awareness. A few weeks ago, I was walking along a trail in nature and a big piece of fruit fell right in front of me. THUD!!" A glimpse. . . Another time a squirrel jumped on a log and started chattering loudly at me. A glimpse. . . And of course there are psychedelics. . . 

Edited October 31, 2017 by Serotoninluv

[phoenix666]

@Serotoninluv thank you for your detailed insights! you kind of put into words  what I was starting to theorize from my still very humble and limited perspective. it happens when it happens. you can't force it. it is all the time. you actually 'just' have to wake up and see it. there are ways to increase the potential or chance for waking up, like contemplating, meditating, watching videos and reading books.  yeah, psychedelics are like a trigger for a huge snowball effect, at least from my experience 

[Forestluv]

@phoenix666 Most of the time I cycle through: "That was it", "Was that it"? and "I don't know what the hell I'm talking about".

[cirkussmile]

On 10/30/2017 at 9:52 PM, Dodo said:

How is this true? Is this not one of the human limiting beliefs that we need all the hussle and tussle in order to "deserve"  something of value?

What if everything is meditation, including the hard and easy paths? What is meditation.. 

Does any situation exist outside truth? Easy path, Hard path, walking any of those you can still observe and look for the space of knowing in which it happens. 

Truth is Pathless! The paths are for the movie's sake. The screen is the same always and present in easy or hard paths.

@phoenix666I would not say all paths lead to Rome, but perhaps all paths are in Rome already :-D What's left is to surrender to Rome and it's eternal unchanging nature. No matter what.

 

Honing in on the unchanging space of now can be done even while eating cheetos on the couch @cirkussmile its not like the now dissappears when you're not in meditative posture. It can be done even while writing an Actualized.org forum post.

It can be done always.

 

Yes. Everything and everyone is Buddha right now. 

But do you live and act like a Buddha? It's a big difference between intelectual understanding and actually knowing the truth from a deeper level. Who cares about what anyone believe? Who cares about the definition of enlightenment? Who cares if there's no path? 

The question is: is it true for you? 

To live and act from Truth is a never ending path and yes, meditation makes everything more clear. Meditation takes your understanding from the intelectual level to beyond everything that is known. 

Always being. Always becoming.