How Do I Move To C-rex And Completely Let Go Of Belief In Materialism?

[InfinitePotential]

In Jed McKenna's works we are encouraged to perform "spiritual autolysis", basically get rid of all of our beliefs until what's left is a Truth. And I certainly think there is something there, namely the being of nothingness.  But even in doing that, couldn't there be Truths outside of the Truth that we have direct access to?

How do we know that things we (perhaps used to) believe in aren't true? In McKenna's theory of everything, he proposes that the physical universe is a subset of consciousness (his C-Rex vs U-Rex idea). I tend to agree (in a way... at least it seems according to our best theories in physics that the universe is absolutely nothing like our human interpretations or intuition of it, and that the act of observation makes things "real"), however his argument seems to be along the lines of "everything we experience we experience within consciousness, therefore consciousness is all there is". Perhaps that's true from the perspective of a human life, but how can we know that a physical universe doesn't exist outside of our conscious awareness (however radically different it may be from our perceptions of it)? I get that we can't KNOW that there is a physical universe, but if asked "is there a physical universe or is there not", wouldn't it be perfectly reasonable to answer "I'm not sure, but if I had to guess I would guess there is"?  How can we KNOW there is not one?

Even with an experience of Source, or Cessation, or Absolute Infinity, or Empty Awareness, or death before dying, etc... Even with that experience how can we know there isn't something outside of it and the consciousness experience it gives rise to (namely, a physical universe)?  It seems just as reasonable to me to say that in such experiences I'm basically going straight to deep sleep while maintaining awareness.  I.e., nothing too out of the ordinary, just a profoundly relaxing experience and practice, but one that could happen in a physical universe where one somehow trains their brain/body to enter deep sleep while remaining aware.

I ask, because I can see enormous benefits from completely freeing myself in the belief of a materialistic universe (namely, not feeling threatened whatsoever, not feeling the need to accumulate goods, compete, exploring mysticism, etc.). 

So far, the most convincing argument I've come up with is "how can there be something rather than nothing"... There can't be!  It makes no sense that there would be something.  Therefore, there is nothing, and every "something" is an "illusion", i.e. not real, i.e. not physical.  

Would love to hear other's thoughts on this matter, pun intended.

 

[Nahm]

@InfinitePotential The absolute is an experience you can have.   Pause for a second on what absolute is. It is not relative.  

[Telepresent]

@InfinitePotential I think the problem here is that our conception of a 'physical universe' is entirely dependent upon

22 hours ago, InfinitePotential said:

our human interpretations or intuition of

the universe.  We believe there is a physical universe because that is how it appears, and so we determine that there must be, and as you point out even if it's established that hard physicality requires observation (and before that it's only potential), here we are trying to determine whether or not there can be a real physical universe ... somewhere.

Problem is, our whole concept of 'physical' comes from the concepts of matter, and substance, and so on.  And it's also dependent upon the idea that this matter creates consciousness.

So once you've established that consciousness must be prior (by collapsing potential to physical matter), you have a problem.  Because what do we mean by 'physical matter'?  We mean that there is definitely something (whatever it may be) beyond consciousness, that directly informs and influences what we experience within consciousness.  More regularly, we mean that there is an object made of whatever this physical stuff is, that is analogous to our direct experience, and we want to point to that and call it 'me'.

Now, I'll agree with you that it is entirely possible that there is some'thing' beyond this entire spectrum of experience that could have some other substance that is not consciousness (and I'll outline a metaphor in a moment) - but when it comes down to everything you experience, can experience, will experience, or anything else at all that comprises this universe, you butt heads with the physical matter / consciousness prime problem.  

So, as a metaphor:

Say there is a computer.  This computer has a screen that is not made of pixels, but made of awareness.  There is also a processor, cpu, etc. etc., and of course there is what appears on the screen (which is awareness).  So let's say we create a program for this computer that is a free-learning, first-person experience.  The processor makes all kinds of calculations in binary, and it sends the output to the screen as a first-person image of a 3D world.  It also creates the thoughts that this character has, the emotions it experiences, and so on and so on.  So this is what awareness is aware of.  Of course, awareness doesn't have it's own independent thoughts, beliefs, experiences, or desires - it only manifests what the cpu sends to it as output.  So while the output on the screen and the screen itself are one thing, there is kind-of a separation in the substance (the world being simulated, of thoughts and feelings and so on), and the truth (that this is only known because it is appearing on a screen 'made' of awareness.  And maybe one day the character becomes curious as to its reality, and it does all the searching stuff and one day becomes enlightened.

Well, what does this mean?  Oddly, it is a contradiction, because the character cannot become enlightened, only the screen can; it can become self-aware.  But no, that's also not right, because the screen cannot DO anything, it just manifests what the program sends to it.  So perhaps it is better to say that the program stops creating beliefs that it is NOT the screen (which of course, the screen never actually believed, but only experienced believing)...  ugh, this is where words fall apart and I hope I'm getting across what I'm trying to say.

Anyway, throughout all of this, the entire physical universe which the character previously believed to exist is revealed to be a simulation upon a screen 'made' of awareness.  Woohoo.  The physical universe is not real.  But it also goes further, because to express reality you have to account for the program (the binary programming and processing etc.), the manifestations on the screen, and the screen itself.  ALL of these together make up 'reality' or the truth - not just the screen.  But the awareness that is aware, is only the screen.  So there's a separation and also not one.  I hope that makes sense?

And now we have to move up a step, because in this metaphor-model there IS a physical reality: the computer in which the program resides.  And I would argue here that at this point we can never, ever, ever know anything.  Why?  Because in the metaphor, 'we' are the manifested character - the program taking place, being manifest on the screen, and the awareness that the screen is 'made' of.  All of that is what - in my understanding - McKenna means when he refers to Consciousness or the Universe.

So... is it possible that there is really a physical universe of some description and means in the same way that there is in my metaphor?  Sure, yeah, but I'd argue that the use of the word 'physical' here is not really useful as it carries baggage from inside the program with it; our entire understanding of 'physical' comes from the world manifest inside the program, not the one that may exist beyond it housing the 'computer'.  Need another word.  

I'm not Done.  So I don't know what happens when you are.  And yes people - including McKenna - speak very authoritatively about the notion that consciousness is ABSOLUTELY ALL.  And you have to take that with a pinch of salt.  Could all be bollocks, could all be wrong, absolutely.  But the prime factor, I think, is that at the moment we're well under the point of worrying about that, as we're still believing the program itself is 'physically real'.  Once that's dispelled, there'll be more exploration to do, I'm sure.  But for now, I find that concerns about an absolute physical reality are more ways of me trying to persuade myself that the program is, in fact, physically true.

(There's more to say here with regard to the infinite digression of a 'real' physical reality as well, but I've written enough for one go!)

Edited October 22, 2017 by Telepresent

[Just10]

@InfinitePotential Maybe don't get rid of everything, for now.

Maybe just set everything to the side.  Like a giant Lego structure.  Can't get to that Lego dude inside the structure so...lets just take apart the structure...grab our little dude...build it back up /shrug.  Maybe build a different structure?  /shrug  #@%^ where did this piece come from, don't need that...

That kind of deal?

But whenever someone says experience I just want to point and go "OoooOooOoooh  Ooooooooo" cover my mouth...do all sorts of other unneccesary gestures and noises.  Just make such a big deal about nothing, you know.  Lots of the 'E' word in your thoughts up above.  

It would be nice if somehow you could just...set aside what everyone has said to you, everything you've read, everything you've experienced, and just...see what comes up, you know?

[Highest]

By recognizing that materialism is a joke, it's assumptions have been destroyed several times by both spirituality and science. It's getting old, and it's really just a matter of time before it collapses, that's it's destiny. The only thing I could agree with is that there is something beyond consciousness, although we have no evidence of it. As I believe in God as separate from His creation, I would say it does exist something beyond consciousness, namely God. Common sense may also suit good here, and I wouldn't  say all there is is consciousness, that's a very bold claim.

Edited October 22, 2017 by Highest