Advaita Vedanta Hates Bhakti, Karma Yoga

[electroBeam]

Why do advaita Vedanta, and neo advaitans always say that bhakti and karma yoga are limited and will not take you to self realization? What specifically is wrong with bhakti and karma yoga and what specifically is special about gnana yoga that makes spiritual leaders assert that bhakti and karma yoga are limited.?

Infact in my own experience, bhakti and Kriya yoga are 1000 if not infinite times more effective at connecting with the divine than gnana yoga could ever being. Gnana yoga in my experience just leaves you in mental masturbation and going round in circles, chasing your tale.

What am I missing here, what dangers am I putting myself in by 'wasting' my time on bhakti and Kriya yoga, as one guru said from an advaitan perspective.

[Toby]

This is a complete misunderstanding of "Advaita Vedanta" or "Neo Advaita". Yes, it is true, that some emphasize more the "Jnana"-part. But most do not and have a strong emphasis on "bhakti" or "love" as well. I really love what I guess Papaji said when stating something like "the bird of truth/freedom has two wings: wisdom/jnana and love/bhakti/devotion". It's not an either this or that.

[Toby]

21 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

'wasting' my time on bhakti and Kriya yoga, as one guru said from an advaitan perspective.

out of curiosity: what guru was it?

[electroBeam]

@Toby http://srivasudevacharya.com/sri-vasudevacharya/

Unfortunately I talk to teachers in person so this is all I could find of him

[Toby]

Never heard of him. Anyone else of "Advaita teachers" that you spend time with that I might know or have spend time with myself?

[electroBeam]

@Toby Mooji is another example of someone who denies Kriya Yoga I understand his stance though, he thinks that everything other than the absolute is 'just the mind'. Like he mistakes prana energy for being just a projection. 

[Toby]

Never met or studied Mooji either, so I can't say. For my taste he wasn't really that much into "emodiment" when I watched some videos of his, unlike other disciples of Papaji (Isaac Shapiro, Gangaji...), so he never had that much of an attraction to me. I don't know, weren't you from Austria or something? Have you heard about "OWK Edgar Hofer" or "HO Gerhard Strauß"? Both are very good examples who "combine" "Energy-work" with Advaita.

[electroBeam]

@Toby Australia, will check them out thanks!

[Toby]

If you are from Australia, check out Sailor Bob Adamson and Isaac Shapiro. The other ones were austrian dudes.

[Highest]

Both paths are useful, but the path of jnana is much more powerful and difficult. In order to achieve liberation from suffering and the ego the path of jnana is necessary while bakhti yoga is definitely not. 

[electroBeam]

@Highest why is that? Why is bhakti not gonna get you to liberation?

[Martin123]

@electroBeam you might wanna check out Jann Essman.

One of the things he says is “practice love and devotion”.

http://lovebliss.eu/

[electroBeam]

@Martin123 I already follow (and have his Shakti Pat in absentia) but a lot of gurus disagree with him and think his Shakti Pat is just projection of the mind hence why im asking this

[Deep]

6 hours ago, electroBeam said:

Why do advaita Vedanta, and neo advaitans always say that bhakti and karma yoga are limited and will not take you to self realization? What specifically is wrong with bhakti and karma yoga and what specifically is special about gnana yoga that makes spiritual leaders assert that bhakti and karma yoga are limited.?

Westerners come from the Abrahamic paradigm where God is separate from creation.They feel like bhakti yoga is more difficult because it might lead you to thinking God is outside of yourself. You can be successful in bhakti yoga and karma yoga if your paradigm shifts. Jnana yoga seems easier because westerners come from a rational/intellectual paradigm. 

[Martin123]

@electroBeam its because they think enlightenment is a withdrawal from illusory form. Which it is, like the first half of it. Then you complete the circle, and you come back to form - shakti. Advaita is the first stage, then you return to form/life/love.

Another good metaphor is the divine feminine and masculine.

The father that dwells in heavens - nothingness, the divine mother - shakti, kundalini and form. Full enlightenment is merger of masculine and feminine.

Ah I just recalled Leo once saying that meditation is like having sex with reality. How accurate, the father nailing the divine mother.

[Leo Gura]

Once you understand that people's minds, personalities, and brains vary quite a bit, you will understand why there are so many different paths, and why they love to misunderstand each other.

[WelcometoReality]

@electroBeam Do what works for you. Don't get caught in following certain traditions. 

But maybe that's just me. I always had a hard time listening to people telling me what to do.

[Shanmugam]

@electroBeam I know what you are saying. This is said out of misunderstanding, by many people who only have theoretical knowledge of Vedanta. But I can clarify this..

You may have heard some Vedantins saying that the most qualified people for Advaita is the ones who can get the truth the moment they hear it. When someone points out the truth of who you are so skillfully, if you are a qualified person for Vedanta, you will get it and you will be instantly awakened. Listening to the truth that is skillfully pointed out by a Guru is called 'Sravana' which literally means listening.

But what makes one such a qualified person? What kind of qualifications are they talking about?

They are called Sadhana Chatustaya - fourfold qualifications with 6 virtues: https://www.swami-krishnananda.org/spiritual.aspiration/aspiration_6.html

So, if someone has completely and perfectly developed these qualifications, he/she will be actually be able to awaken, once they hear the truth pointed out. Such people are called 'Uththama adhikaris'.  After they listen to the truth, if they still don't awaken, that only indicates that they have not developed these fourfold qualifications. So, they go through two more stages to compensate the incomplete development of fourfold qualifications, which are known as manana and nidhidhyasana. Manana is more commonly understood as reflecting over the truth repeatedly and niddhidhyasana is a type of meditation that is explained here: http://www.adhyatmaprakasha.org/Volumes/PDF/english/043/index.pdf

So what does this tell you?

If someone is not awakened in the Sravana stage, he has obviously not done the prior step of developing fourfold qualifications correctly. If he has done it correctly, then he doesn't need anymore practice but he just needs to hear from a Guru as he points out the truth. Such a disciple who didn't complete the previous step properly is similar to a student who has arrears in a college semester. In other words, going through the stages of manana and nidhidhyasana is not normal even though it is more common.

If you ask a vedanta student why many people have to go through manana and nidhidhyasana and why they didn't awaken once they heard the truth, they may probably tell you this : "that only happens very rarely to a few people, such a people are rare to find'... They will say as if it is an exception, but it is supposed to be the rule. Because, obviously, if they had worked harder on the fourfold qualifications, it would have happened.

Where did they go wrong then?

They went wrong because of the  instructions like 'bhakti yoga, karma yoga and kriya yoga are limited' that you mentioned... Because, after hearing such instructions they tend to think "if they are limited, then why go through them? Let me directly listen to my guru, study scriptures and practice manana and nidhidhyasana... I think I have developed the fourfold qualifications". Most of the students of Vedanta do this mistake.

But, if you ask any qualified guru how to develop these fourfold qualifications in the first place, he will tell you this:

        "You should practice Bhakti yoga, karma yoga or kriya yoga"... 

Because these practices help developing the fourfold qualifications by purifying the mind.

Let me put it in a different way. You may heard many people say that you cannot do anything to get spirituality awakened. They will say that there is no action possible, nothing you can do can get you spiritual enlightenment. They are right, but this teaching is not complete.

The truth is, you cannot do anything to get enlightened; but you can do many things to purify your mind, to develop these fourfold qualifications. That is why they say that enlightenment doesn't happen because of your doing but it happens because of grace.

But what happens because of your doing is this purification of your mind, which gets you ready to receive that grace, which makes you to awaken as soon as the truth is pointed out. In some cases, the self knowledge (atma jnana)  dawns automatically once the mind is completely purified.

That means, developing these fourfold qualifications is the actual spiritual path. In other words, bhakti yoga, karma yoga or kriya yoga is the actual spiritual practice which  occupies the longest time in a person's spiritual journey.  That is why in Gita, Krishna says that there are only two paths: Action and knowledge. A person does some action to purify his mind, then the knowledge of the absolute reality dawns; finally he lives the rest of his life with the strength of his self-knowledge. This is the whole gist of Gita, as explained in the commentary of Adhi Shankara. You can download the free ebook of Shankara's Gita commentary here: https://archive.org/download/Bhagavad-Gita.with.the.Commentary.of.Sri.Shankaracharya/Bhagavad-Gita.with.the.Commentary.of.Sri.Shankaracharya.pdf

All these three, bhakti yoga, karma yoga or kriya yoga come under the path of action (karma nistha); and the rest comes under path of knowledge (jnana nistha) . Karma nishtha leads to jnana nishtha...

If self-realization can be compared to the top floor and if you compare spiritual practice as 18 steps leading to the top floor, then bhakti yoga, karma yoga or kriya yoga are spanned in the first 17 floors whereas the path of knowledge is the last step. How can anyone reach the last step without crossing the first 17 steps?