Posted February 22, 2016 I have a question. Why people are trying to "realize how"/"find a way" to become enlightened or sometimes they even "come up" with their own "to do list" which they believe is going to get them to enlightenment, when there is already a model given by Buddha, which is 100% working? Don't take me wrong, I'm not trying to push Buddhism on anybody. We don't have to believe all the mystical stuff like reincarnation and stories about hell/heaven, but we could use the steps Buddhism gives. For example, many people after watching Leo's or someone else's videos start meditating and stuff. What Buddha said was that deep meditation is pointless unless you developed goodwill towards others and have right behaviours (body, speech, mind), which actually makes sense if you take a good look at it. So why so many modern guru omit such important points? Are they important? Is there a shortcut to enlightenment which I'm not aware of? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 22, 2016 @Pinocchio the thing is, that according to buddhism you have to take the whole teaching for granted at first, so you get inspired to search for the truth yourself. Then you have to double check every word Buddha said, you have to learn and experience everything yourself. Are you saying that whatever Leo (or whoever else) tells you is not "handed to you on a silver platter"? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 22, 2016 1 minute ago, tropicana said: 1 hour ago, tropicana said: I have a question. Why people are trying to "realize how"/"find a way" to become enlightened or sometimes they even "come up" with their own "to do list" which they believe is going to get them to enlightenment, when there is already a model given by Buddha, which is 100% working? Don't take me wrong, I'm not trying to push Buddhism on anybody. We don't have to believe all the mystical stuff like reincarnation and stories about hell/heaven, but we could use the steps Buddhism gives. For example, many people after watching Leo's or someone else's videos start meditating and stuff. What Buddha said was that deep meditation is pointless unless you developed goodwill towards others and have right behaviours (body, speech, mind), which actually makes sense if you take a good look at it. So why so many modern guru omit such important points? Are they important? Is there a shortcut to enlightenment which I'm not aware of? @Pinocchio the thing is, that according to buddhism you have to take the whole teaching for granted at first, so you get inspired to search for the truth yourself. Then you have to double check every word Buddha said, you have to learn and experience everything yourself. Are you saying that whatever Leo (or whoever else) tells you is not "handed to you on a silver platter"? Being nice to others isn't gonna make you enlightened... The Buddah was just lazy as f*ck because he knew no one would want to go through all the shit that he did in order to become enlightened so he just said some random things he thought sounded good. I'm just joking ofc. But seriously, the stuff Leo tells us is beyond all the bullshit every spiritual guru teaches, so keep on listening to him and stop believing old tales you don't even know are true. - Enter your fear and you are free - Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 22, 2016 @Quizzer by being nice to others you start the process of destroying your ego. If you truly wish everybody to be happy as you would wish it for yourself, you make your ego do something else rather than just pleasing itself 24/7 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 22, 2016 @Quizzer besides, how do you know whatever Leo tells you is true? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 22, 2016 2 minutes ago, tropicana said: @Quizzer by being nice to others you start the process of destroying your ego. If you truly wish everybody to be happy as you would wish it for yourself, you make your ego do something else rather than just pleasing itself 24/7 On the other hand. If you start helping people because you expect that it might give you something(enlightenment), helping others is now claimed and conceptualized by the ego. Everyone has to find out their own path. For some that might be helping others, for others it might be a different approach RIP Roe V Wade 1973-2022 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 22, 2016 @vizual this is a good point. That is why I said "truly wish". And there are ways to check whether your ego is taking advantage again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 22, 2016 @Pinocchio See, it's hard to use language to explain all these concepts. The ego called tropicana has heard of an opinion that the human conscious is an ego, which is just a concept. Are you, ego Pinocchio, satisfied with this answer now? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 22, 2016 @Pinocchio And I'm still waiting for a reasonable answer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 22, 2016 yes, exactly! But I don't understand why the basics (which I pointed out in the beginning) are omitted? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 22, 2016 In Theravada (I don't know anything of other schools) one should first train themselves for a right action, right speech and right livelihood. So basically, one should have goodwill, shouldn't kill, lie, steal, should speak softly and nicely, should think in a "moral" way (for example, if you smile at someone and wish them a nice day but deeply inside wish they were dead, that is not moral); one also should help others and stuff like that. There are a lot of rules that cover everyday life. Many people say that it is pointless to do deep meditations unless you can control your action, speech, and mind (i.e. unless you developed awareness). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 22, 2016 I suppose that no one has license on having "optimal path to enlightenment". Buddha as a being was no better or worse than me. He lived on exactly the same terms as we do. "What is enlightenment, which is so often said to be the ultimate goal of meditation? There are many esoteric details that we can safely ignore—disagreements among contemplative traditions about what, exactly, is gained or lost at the end of the spiritual path. Many of these claims are preposterous. Within most schools of Buddhism, for instance, a buddha—whether the historical Buddha, Siddhartha Gautama, or any other person who attains the state of “full enlightenment”—is generally described as “omniscient.” But actually what does it means? "omniscient", "omnipotent" or "omni-anything"? Is it reasonable to expect that an ascetic in the fifth century BC, by virtue of his meditative insights, spontaneously became an unprecedented genius in every field of human inquiry, including those that did not exist at the time in which he lived? ... I doubt it. Knowledge of self that one can attain in pursuit of enlightenment is different category than knowledge of the objective, material reality that is normally thought as our natural environment that we live in. The similarity lies in the experiential side of the study. When you do natural science, you use scientific method. Start with hypothesis that is foundation to make experiment and observe whether hypothesis is empirically valid. Then you can do it again and again, and perhaps formulate some general formula like Law of physics for phenomenon that you study. In case of studying awareness, you can do analogously: Claim Hypothesis: There is no discrete self or ego living like a Minotaur in the labyrinth of the brain. Do Experience: Meditation session And result is ... everyone has to check it by himself. I don't trust in any claims of any guru or contemplative master like Budda or Jesus. There is no spiritual authority that I will just blindy follow. Of course the role of the teacher giving "pointing-out" instructions may be very helpful but in the end human experience is irreducibly subjective. So everyone must decide for himself independently and approach it rather with skepticism because there is so much hustle in this spirituality business. Natural science is easier, because probably you don't have any emotional inclinations towards "outer, physical reality". So it's easy to make objective, third-person observations. No one will deny for example discovered by Newton Second Law of dynamics: F=a*m. It complies with our intuitive imagination of how physical objects behave. For example: "There is two objects with different masses. Both are free falling from the same attitude. The heavier object will hit the ground with greater force than the lighter one." Now, in case of studying awareness, there is an obstacle: Actually, you are awareness. But on the same time, you already have concept of self and very deep-rooted sense of identity based on your life experiences, thoughts, beliefs and so on. So there is a conflict. The teachings of Buddhism and Advaita are best viewed as lab manuals and explorers’ logs detailing the results of empirical research on the nature of human consciousness. But of course you won't approach it with the same degree of neutral unprejudiced demeanor as in class of physics. I think introspection/meditation is just study on consciousness itself and to me, there is no evident relation between awareness and as you said, good will toward others and right behavior. It is necessary to govern own's life with ethics, but awareness is simply what it is. Nothing more or less. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 23, 2016 1 hour ago, Quizzer said: I'm just joking ofc. But seriously, the stuff Leo tells us is beyond all the bullshit every spiritual guru teaches, so keep on listening to him and stop believing old tales you don't even know are true. Yeah because Leo is enligh..oh wait No just kidding, his stuff is great but you should always think for yourself or not think at all, nobody has all the answers Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 23, 2016 yes... But what if it is essential?? And this is why not so many of us already are enlightened? I wanna hear opinions why this lifestyle might be required or not required! Thank you Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 23, 2016 @Guczo thank you for your reply Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 23, 2016 Maybe someone knows enlightened people? What kind of lifestyle do they maintain? Are they nice and calm or rude and crazy? lol Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 23, 2016 @tropicana Exactly, Look for example at the RZA, the leader of Wu tang Clan. I' ve read his book Tao of Wu. He gained spiritual knowledge of self as young boy but eventually he was raised in NY projects. So his childhood and youth was the School of Hard Knocks. I'm not from US, but I also grew up in the projects, in very harsh,fucked-up environment. Does anybody still naively thinks that Enlightened human being(whatever finally this means) is always nice and kind and do-goody? As RZA said... come in peace, but be prapared for war Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 23, 2016 (edited) 12 minutes ago, tropicana said: Maybe someone knows enlightened people? What kind of lifestyle do they maintain? Are they nice and calm or rude and crazy? lol Osho seemed enlightened to me, but as he claimed he was promiscuous and loved luxury, he had 90 rolls royces. Does that fit into your morality? (not hating on your philosophy, i was surprised by myself, it was contradictory for me) Edited February 23, 2016 by Locooig Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted February 23, 2016 @Locooig @Guczo woah, I need to read about those two. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
