The Mind/body Relationship Struggle

[Wes Thoughts]

I still am struggling to get past the very real sense that I am so intimately attached and aware of my brain/body. How do you explain the fact that if I shoot myself in the head I will cease to have any conscious experience? Doesn't that prove that my consciousness is created in the brain? Doesn't that prove that all I perceive is directly related to this brain/body? There wouldn't be anyone here to ask these questions or type this if I was dead (aka destroyed my brain/body).

The fact that you can kill yourself and cease to have any perceptions at all means that your perceptions are tied directly to this brain/body, right?  It has to at least prove there is some intimate relationship there. 

How can reality (my brain/body) be an illusion when all of these perceptions are so very real? They are all I have really and they seem to be correlated very closely with my body. I am very aware of all the sensations of my body. Is it not that they are not real, but just that I don't have to identify with them? Why do I automatically perceive them then? Also, I can only feel my perceptions not yours. Why is my awareness so drawn to only my body perceptions? That gives a very real sense of me being separate from you.

Anyone care to share their point of view on this?

[LaucherJunge]

There is no you to percieve anything when you are dead obviously the ego is bound to the body. Consciousness is not ego thats all spirituality is about to finally be able to aknowledge the truth behind it all, consciousness. If your ego dies you will percieve whole different worlds like people do on psychedelics for example.

[WelcometoReality]

On 2017-09-28 at 4:51 PM, Wes Thoughts said:

I still am struggling to get past the very real sense that I am so intimately attached and aware of my brain/body. How do you explain the fact that if I shoot myself in the head I will cease to have any conscious experience? Doesn't that prove that my consciousness is created in the brain? Doesn't that prove that all I perceive is directly related to this brain/body? There wouldn't be anyone here to ask these questions or type this if I was dead (aka destroyed my brain/body).

You say your brain/body. Who/what is that which has a brain/body. By saying that you are implying that you are separate from your body/mind right?

If you were to shoot yourself in the head the body/mind would stop working but would you cease to exist? Let's conclude that we don't know what's going to happen after death for now.

On 2017-09-28 at 4:51 PM, Wes Thoughts said:

The fact that you can kill yourself and cease to have any perceptions at all means that your perceptions are tied directly to this brain/body, right?  It has to at least prove there is some intimate relationship there. 

You can't kill yourself.  But you can't take my word for it so that doesn't help you does it? Again what is it that has a brain/body? Yes there is an intimate relationship with the brain/body but is that what you truly are? If you can see the brain/body then that can't ultimately be you can it? Because what is it that sees the brain/body then?

On 2017-09-28 at 4:51 PM, Wes Thoughts said:

How can reality (my brain/body) be an illusion when all of these perceptions are so very real? They are all I have really and they seem to be correlated very closely with my body. I am very aware of all the sensations of my body. Is it not that they are not real, but just that I don't have to identify with them? Why do I automatically perceive them then? Also, I can only feel my perceptions not yours. Why is my awareness so drawn only my body perceptions? That gives a very real sense of me being separate from you.

It's not that the perceptions doesn't exist it is just not what you truly are. The illusion is the identification with the body-mind not the body-mind itself.

On 2017-09-28 at 4:51 PM, Wes Thoughts said:

Why is my awareness so drawn to only my body perceptions?

You can answer these questions yourself by looking into your own experience. What is that me that has an awareness?  Does it exist? Search for that me. That is the first step.

[Wes Thoughts]

@WelcometoReality Thank you very much for taking the time to reply! I would like to reply to each of your replies:

8 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

You say your brain/body. Who/what is that which has a brain/body. By saying that you are implying that you are separate from your body/mind right?

If you were to shoot yourself in the head the body/mind would stop working but would you cease to exist? Let's conclude that we don't know what's going to happen after death for now.

I believe it is the brain/body that gives rise to my consciousness that creates the "me", the thinker, the perceiver. Therefore, no, I am not separate from my body/mind, I (my consciousness) am made of it / from it.

8 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

You can't kill yourself.  But you can't take my word for it so that doesn't help you does it? Again what is it that has a brain/body? Yes there is an intimate relationship with the brain/body but is that what you truly are? If you can see the brain/body then that can't ultimately be you can it? Because what is it that sees the brain/body then?

Again, I believe it is my brain/body that is giving rise to my consciousness. There is no way to know if that is what I truly am for sure. How can you truly know that you are just pure consciousness and not just a brain having these far out thoughts? After all you never did, knew or thought anything before you had this brain/body, right? I don't remember anything before I was born aka had a brain/body.

I can see the brain/body and that can be me because it is my brain/body giving rise to my consciousness allowing it to see and know itself.

8 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

It's not that the perceptions doesn't exist it is just not what you truly are. The illusion is the identification with the body-mind not the body-mind itself.

I really like this reply. I like that this acknowledges the body-mind is not an illusion. It could be that my concepts and identification with it are incorrect but how can you know that the concept of being pure conscious awareness having a body/mind experience is correct though? How would you truly know that it is not your body/mind that gave rise to your consciousness and through hours of reprogramming your beliefs and thinking through meditation and self-inquiry that you now have just reprogrammed your brain to think differently about the body/mind and reality?

8 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

You can answer these questions yourself by looking into your own experience. What is that me that has an awareness?  Does it exist? Search for that me. That is the first step.

How do you know that whatever you discover from doing this is not just your brain/consciousness which is of the body/mind? 

I realize that I could be wrong but how can you be so sure that these other concepts of consciousness are correct? I am sure you will say direct experience, but how do you know that is not created from the body/mind/consciousness? 

 

[Natasha]

@Wes Thoughts Consciousness (awareness/ the Absolute/ God) does not need a body-mind in order to know itself. When the body-mind construct cease to exist, what left is what has always been, will be, and what every-thing is made of - self-aware/self-abiding No-thing, our true nature. And because of its non-dual nature, when the body-mind 'dies', it also ceases to 'perceive' the dual world. 

[Wes Thoughts]

@Natasha Thanks for the insight. 

3 minutes ago, Natasha said:

Consciousness (awareness/ the Absolute/ God) does not need a body-mind in order to know itself. When the body-mind construct cease to exist, what left is what has always been, will be, and what every-thing is made of - self-aware/self-abiding No-thing, our true nature. And because of its non-dual nature, when the body-mind 'dies', it also ceases to 'perceive' the dual world.

How do you know this though. Couldn't it be that your body/mind gave rise to the consciousness allowing you to think of this concept? How can I be absolutely sure it is not my body/mind that is creating my consciousness? 

[Natasha]

2 minutes ago, Wes Thoughts said:

@Natasha Thanks for the insight. 

How do you know this though. Couldn't it be that your body/mind gave rise to the consciousness allowing you to think of this concept? How can I be absolutely sure it is not my body/mind that is creating my consciousness? 

Don't confuse Consciousness with perception. Consciousness (Awareness, the Absolute, God) is the 'container' in which the body-mind appears and dissapears, not the other way around. It's non-dual, which mind can't grasp. So if one shot themself in the head (using your exampe), they would cease to perceive dual reality and in the absence of the illusion, would fully know themself as the Absolute/ Consciousness/ Awareness, God.  

 

[Wes Thoughts]

@Natasha I understand what you are saying as a concept. I just don't believe it fully or know it as the absolute Truth. I realize that I don't know my concept of body/mind as absolute Truth either. I think both concepts of consciousness (body/mind > consciousness) and (consciousness > body/mind) are valid with the questions we are asking of them.

I only hope that through this journey it is possible to know the absolute, undeniable, experiential, upper-case Truth. 

It's crazy to think that I don't even have one grounded absolute Truth that I know is true. I can see how finding it would be amazing!

[Pelin]

Your body and my body and a fir tree's body all experience different sensations and perceptions, but we all share the same consciousness. So the consciousness may never die, but bodies (therefore minds) can, that's how I see it.

Now if you ask me how I know, I don't know. I just feel this way. and I suppose it cannot be known until it's known.  Sorry if this is confusing.

[Highest]

 How do you explain the fact that if I shoot myself in the head I will cease to have any conscious experience? You don't know that, nobody does. The mind is attached to the body, higher consciousness is attached to the soul/self. But in my opinion take care of the body and ignore the mind when that time comes, or better to end it altogether, make it quiet. The body is important, eat healthy and train if you can. The mind is not, it causes more problems than anything else. You can do this without an ego, the ego is just a joke, a comedy. Common sense is all a human being needs.

[Highest]

btw don't confuse God with His creation, to say I am God is the super ego tricking us, a blasphemy and a joke. The soul is the absolute truth, when that happens and the ego dies (normally after years of spiritual practice or stuff like dmt) one is free to just exist.

[Brimstone]

@Wes Thoughts you can't be certain that if you shoot yourself you will die. Did you know that when a child is born, and a person dies there is a natural release of the DMT molecule, it just naturally occurs, its like a door opening. 

 

Edited September 30, 2017 by Brimstone

[Nahm]

On 9/28/2017 at 10:51 AM, Wes Thoughts said:

I still am struggling to get past the very real sense that I am so intimately attached and aware of my brain/body. How do you explain the fact that if I shoot myself in the head I will cease to have any conscious experience? Doesn't that prove that my consciousness is created in the brain? Doesn't that prove that all I perceive is directly related to this brain/body? There wouldn't be anyone here to ask these questions or type this if I was dead (aka destroyed my brain/body).

The fact that you can kill yourself and cease to have any perceptions at all means that your perceptions are tied directly to this brain/body, right?  It has to at least prove there is some intimate relationship there. 

How can reality (my brain/body) be an illusion when all of these perceptions are so very real? They are all I have really and they seem to be correlated very closely with my body. I am very aware of all the sensations of my body. Is it not that they are not real, but just that I don't have to identify with them? Why do I automatically perceive them then? Also, I can only feel my perceptions not yours. Why is my awareness so drawn to only my body perceptions? That gives a very real sense of me being separate from you.

Anyone care to share their point of view on this?

That you will cease to have a conscious experience if you shoot yourself is not an experience, it's a thought. So you don't have to pick that thought. I can see why you would, but you should see why you wouldn't. You might be basing this on your experience of being born or being alive, but you'd have to admit, those are not actually experienced, just thoughts. You could have picked your eye ball and said that without your eye you would have no conscious experience. 

You are not your eye, yet you perceive through it. Your brain and body are them same. You are not them. 

The perceptions are illusionary also. Everything about you and me that is physical,  is actually not at all physical. It's an experience of physical by something that can't be defined by what it perceives through (you and me) Separation is the experience, just like you watching a movie is an experience. One is the reality. You and me are 99.9999999% the same thing, and in reality, 100% and 0% the same not-a-thing (as math doesn't even apply either)

Focus & pursuit of the no-thing experience seems to invoke and be commonly attached to fear in general. I just want to add that the no-thing, the One, in my experience, is pure love. Unfathomable unexplainable uncomprising unconditional mystical AF pure blissful real love, and is conscious (though not conscious as I mean to be stating here with thoughts and words - not in any limited sense - LOVE in an incomprehensible unlimited sense) It's come to be my understanding that the fear lies in what separates us, what we hold in some degree of focus, which is actually in addition to the love, not indicative of the One in experience, only in thinking and emotion (the movie / illusion).  

[Wes Thoughts]

23 hours ago, Nahm said:

I just want to add that the no-thing, the One, in my experience, is pure love. Unfathomable unexplainable uncomprising unconditional mystical AF pure blissful real love

I guess I don't care which concept of reality is correct as long as there really is a way to experience that I am in! 

[Nahm]

@Wes Thoughts right on! 

typically called 'the path'

[Joseph Maynor]

The mind and body exist they're just not your mind and body.   This is kind of a loose way of speaking, but I think you see my point.  What is illusory is that the mind and body are yours.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Nahm]

Body and mind in the most literal sense do not exist. They are a dream, and the dream does not exist. The absolute exists and is not real and not not real.  

[WelcometoReality]

 

On 2017-09-30 at 4:52 PM, Wes Thoughts said:

I believe it is the brain/body that gives rise to my consciousness that creates the "me", the thinker, the perceiver. Therefore, no, I am not separate from my body/mind, I (my consciousness) am made of it / from it.

It makes sense based on that.

On 2017-09-30 at 4:52 PM, Wes Thoughts said:

Again, I believe it is my brain/body that is giving rise to my consciousness. There is no way to know if that is what I truly am for sure. How can you truly know that you are just pure consciousness and not just a brain having these far out thoughts? After all you never did, knew or thought anything before you had this brain/body, right? I don't remember anything before I was born aka had a brain/body.

I can see the brain/body and that can be me because it is my brain/body giving rise to my consciousness allowing it to see and know itself.

We have to base it on our direct experience what else can we base it on.

Why don't you think you are a two-headed mutant riding through space on a giant mushroom? 

It doesn't really match your direct experience. Right?

If you identify with the body/mind it makes perfect sense to make those conclusions you've made.

On 2017-09-30 at 4:52 PM, Wes Thoughts said:

I really like this reply. I like that this acknowledges the body-mind is not an illusion. It could be that my concepts and identification with it are incorrect but how can you know that the concept of being pure conscious awareness having a body/mind experience is correct though? How would you truly know that it is not your body/mind that gave rise to your consciousness and through hours of reprogramming your beliefs and thinking through meditation and self-inquiry that you now have just reprogrammed your brain to think differently about the body/mind and reality?

It has nothing to do about beliefs or thinking. It is beyond mind, thoughts and perceptions but don't take my word for it. Find that out for yourself if you truly want to know.

On 2017-09-30 at 4:52 PM, Wes Thoughts said:

How do you know that whatever you discover from doing this is not just your brain/consciousness which is of the body/mind? 

I realize that I could be wrong but how can you be so sure that these other concepts of consciousness are correct? I am sure you will say direct experience, but how do you know that is not created from the body/mind/consciousness? 

Consciousness is beyond mind. How am I sure? I can't tell you how.  But after realizing it's like being the body/mind is about as likely as being a two-headed mutant riding through space on a giant mushroom.  Of course I'm exaggerating (a little)!

[Wes Thoughts]

@WelcometoReality Thanks for the reply. I have come to realize that I have to find this direct experience of it myself otherwise this would just be another theory for me to adapt. I am just skeptical that the direct experience itself could possibly be an illusion too, but hopefully when I have it, it will be so real that I won't have to be skeptical