The Map Is Not The Territory -- Infinite Regress

[PetarKa]

I have come to a paradox of sorts. Before I explain what my main idea is, let me set the foundation.

For those of you who might not be familiar with this CONCEPT, and it really is just a concept, of "The map is not the territory.", it basically means that I / we do not "know" reality. We can only make models (maps) of it. For example, all of our scientific models about reality aren't "true", they are not the real thing. They are only a model / map / lens which we use to make sense of and interract with reality (the territory). And we can never be sure whether a particular model is accurate or will be accurate in the future. If gravity has been tested over and over again, millions of times even, I still can't guarantee that my model of gravity will work in the future (upon finding a different result).

So finally, I can tell you what the paradox is. Well, like I said, the map is not the territory [concept 1]. BUT the concept  of "The map is not the territory." is just another concept (another map) [concept 2]. And also the concept that the concept of "The map is not the territory." is yet again ANOTHER MAP [concept 3].And the concept that the concept that the concept of "The map is not the territory." IS YET AGAIN ANOTHER CONCEPT!!!!! And like this it goes on ad infinitum (to infinity).

So is it possible to escape this inifite cycle of maps / concepts? Are we doomed to realize that the map is not the territory and be stuck in this infinite regress? Or perhaps a hidden answer lies within Enlightenment... What do you think?

[Forestluv]

@PetarKa I was conceptualizing this just last week and with a nudge from Leo realized everything is territory, including maps.

[Truth]

2 hours ago, PetarKa said:

So is it possible to escape this inifite cycle of maps / concepts? Are we doomed to realize that the map is not the territory and be stuck in this infinite regress? 

When you're being there is no infinite cycles, no concepts, no maps, no territory, no escaping, no stuckness, no paradox, no models, you're just left with what IS. You "escape" it by BEING, not positing more thoughts, questions, ideas and concepts.

 

Edited September 26, 2017 by Truth

[Leo Gura]

@PetarKa Yes, of course! Which is why you can't think your way to enlightenment.

Thinking about enlightenment/truth isn't it, it's just more thinking. Thinking about awareness is not the same as being aware.

This is the key trap of mind: it thinks that it can think itself out of thinking into awareness, but that's just more thinking!

What's required is to realize this trap, and drop thinking (at least for a while).

Thinking is just one mode of approaching life, and then there's an infinite number of other modes.

There is a discontinuous jump between map and territory. An insight -- an ah-ha! moment -- is required here.

[phoenix666]

I also stumbled upon this 'problem' of infinite regress. the thing is I get that thinking is just a tool and it isn't going to lead to enlightenment. but even that I only know intellectually. which is in turn more thinking.

I really don't know how to step out of this 'thinking' mode. whenever I try, I end up thinking myself out of thinking fuck, does that even make sense?

[Leo Gura]

This is why I say 1% theory to 99% practice. When you get this ratio out of whack, you get lost in the labyrinths of the mind.

Watch my video about Balancing Theory vs Practicing. That's a super important video that most people rarely grasp. Watch it several times. It's very profound -- not to toot my own horn, it's just a very deep topic. Pay extra-attention to where I say that you must learn how to use theory to break out of bad practice, and practice to break out of bad theory. A flexible, conscious mind should be able to do that. It requires some contemplation about the limits of mind, and then some training.

It's not easy to do. Even as I say this, and even though I've shot that video, I still struggle with doing it in practice. The mind is extremely self-deceptive. No one is immune to the Devil's trickery. I notice my mind deceiving me all the time. It requires constant vigilance and work.

Most people are forever lost in the infinite labyrinths of the mind. And the only thing what will save them, is death. You're like a computer stuck in an infinite loop. So be happy death is possible

In fact that's what enlightenment is: death. That's really the only hope you've got of escaping the labyrinth. That's why you're in the labyrinth to begin with. No labyrinth = no you. You ARE the labyrinth!

[phoenix666]

@Leo Gura thank you for your advice, I will look into that once again.

It's so deceptive, it's actually very beautiful. I am more and more in awe about this self sustaining trickery

[Forestluv]

12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@PetarKa There is a discontinuous jump between map and territory. An insight -- an ah-ha! moment -- is required here.

Leo, is it possible to get a glimpse of The Truth without being enlightened? Occasionally, with and without psychedelics, there is a moment beyond explanation or conceptualization. 

[Brimstone]

A concept is a concept is a concept is a concept........ This is a beautiful realisation to follow as it shows an idea caving in on itself, and deconstructing before your very eyes. The problem is as Leo points to is that mind needs an explanation, but the problem for mind is that there is no explanation to be found, which is the a-ha (hahahahahahaha) moment. That is the joke and the complete crux of what it is and why most don't get it because they think it is some-thing. That is why thinking it is some-thing, including enlightenment, will always fail.

Truth is unknowing.

Edited September 27, 2017 by Brimstone

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

Leo, is it possible to get a glimpse of The Truth without being enlightened?

Yes

The Truth is not a one-dimensional thing. There are many degrees to realizing it. It's best to think of it as a spectrum of consciousness, or a jewel with many facets.

[phoenix666]

@Serotoninluv as inspiring as those glimpses can be (and admittedly, such aha-moments and insights are immensely cool to experience), I think that the most important thing, is to integrate and embody what you felt in those special moments in the daily life. That's the real work, keeping a high awareness as you go though your daily life.

[Forestluv]

7 hours ago, phoenix666 said:

@Serotoninluv as inspiring as those glimpses can be (and admittedly, such aha-moments and insights are immensely cool to experience), I think that the most important thing, is to integrate and embody what you felt in those special moments in the daily life. That's the real work, keeping a high awareness as you go though your daily life.

Or perhaps integrate my daily life into those glimpses?

[Joseph Maynor]

The mind can't grab reality.  The mind is part of reality.  

Relevant video:

 

Edited September 28, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[phoenix666]

43 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Or perhaps integrate my daily life into those glimpses?

a change of perspective/in direction is always refreshing