How Can You Know If There Are Other Perspectives?

[Emerald]

10 hours ago, Nahm said:

@Emerald You can experience yourself as others but in the experience, it is very clear there is no other. 

I see what you're saying. But even if you can perceive that there is no other, it still doesn't mean that this is actually the case. This is because there is still a blind-spot where we can't determine whether our perceptions are accurate or real in any way. So, we may be able to experience and perceive that there is no other, but it doesn't mean that our experiences are accurate or real in any way. Do you see what I mean? All we can know is what is being experienced in the present moment beyond labels and interpretations. All else is just the fodder of thoughts. And saying "there is no others" is in itself an interpretation of the raw material of perception. So, it can't be known as knowing itself is limited. We can experience and be but we can never know.

[Emerald]

15 hours ago, ajasatya said:

i've had some crazy experiences with ayahuasca in which i could see/feel the details of the life of other people. i could see the mistakes they make, unhealthy details about their intimate lives. i could feel in "my" body the suffering that "they" experience in "their" bodies.

it gets really crazy. it's truly mysterious. we think we know but we're completely clueless. CLUELESS.

That was similar to what I experienced on Ayahuasca. My intuition was super tuned in to other's experiences. And I would get insights in a really visceral way just by looking at people and things... or actions that people were taking.

For example, I was 20 and at a house party, the second time that I took Ayahuasca. And the guys that I was hanging out with had this cute little pugle (mix between a pug and beagle). And they loved that little dog so much. And they had been pretending to talk to the pugle like many people do with their pets. And they would make up the voice for her and make up her responses to what they would say. And I had been watching them do this for months, and it seemed very normal. Like I said, lots of people do this with their animals. I have done it many times before too.

But when I took the Ayahuasca, I saw that the personality that they had constructed for the pugle was completely different than her actual personality. So, when they were talking to her, they were never really talking to her. They were just talking to themselves. It was all a projection to which she was the projection screen. They didn't know the dog at all, and they couldn't love her even if they wanted to. They might as well have never even met her. And I wasn't sad for the dog, persay. The dog had no issue. I was sad for them. They didn't realize that they were doing that. At many levels, they didn't anyway. And this made me feel sad for them because they were isolated from reality and cut off from their ability to love another person. They were crazy, and they didn't know it.

But it also made me feel sad for most human beings, because this is why we have such an issue connecting with one another. We see only what we project. We never see what's actually there. So, we've forgotten how to love. And all this wisdom, hit me all at once in the form of an emotion that carried this insight with it. And it made me feel like I wanted to hold these grown men like little babies because they felt so precious to me and so innocent. A bit strange to say now. But I really felt that way. I get that way from time to time when I think of how people are so innocent for all their lives. We never lose that innocence because we never know anything.

[Nahm]

3 hours ago, Emerald said:

I see what you're saying. But even if you can perceive that there is no other, it still doesn't mean that this is actually the case. This is because there is still a blind-spot where we can't determine whether our perceptions are accurate or real in any way.

Our perceptions are not accurate or real in anyway. There is an experience to be had outside of the movie, or behind the curtains.

So, we may be able to experience and perceive that there is no other, but it doesn't mean that our experiences are accurate or real in any way. Do you see what I mean? All we can know is what is being experienced in the present moment beyond labels and interpretations. All else is just the fodder of thoughts. And saying "there is no others" is in itself an interpretation of the raw material of perception. So, it can't be known as knowing itself is limited.

We can experience and be but we can never know.

It does come down to experience. There are no words to communicate what there are no words for. 

 

[Danda]

I was talking about solipsism without even knowing that something like this exists. What is it realtionship to Enlightenment? 

The thing is that I am just confused how these perspectives fit into bigger picture (absolute)? 

How are they interconnected?

How can you become aware of them?

Is it through perspectives how the Absolute becomes actualized?

I am so grateful for your answers folks. 

[Joseph Maynor]

I'm inclined to think the only thing I'm sure about is Being in the present moment.  Other things existing, including other people is a thought-story.  So, I guess I do gravitate to a kind of solipsism, although that would be a thought-story too.  Being just is.  

Edited September 25, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Brimstone]

What is a perspective that does not arise in "I"?

Who am "I" though?

I understand that psychedelics offer a path of surrender that can be quite useful in deconditioning ones mind to attachment, and the games of the ego, but it is only one of many paths, none more significant than an other, for all reflect your beauty, unconditionally, relentlessly, endlessly.

Indras net is very fitting and points towards an ability to see beyond I and to experience through other eyes, although really, is that any more or less of an illusion than seeing from My I alone? 

Edited September 25, 2017 by Brimstone

[dorg]

1 hour ago, Joseph Maynor said:

I'm inclined to think the only thing I'm sure about is Being in the present moment.  Other things existing, including other people is a thought-story.  So, I guess I do gravitate to a kind of solipsism, although that would be a thought-story too.  Being just is.  

You can either be experience as it happens, ie, what is, or a thought created character in a thought created story.

 

Edited September 25, 2017 by dorg

[Joseph Maynor]

@dorg Well said.  I agree.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Danda]

@Maxx I was very logical and rational. These were my highest values. And then I realized how hollow these things are. So now I am exploring the other side of pendulum.

So even if this makes no sens, it is how I experiencing it right now.

When i think about other perspectives that are happeing without experiencing them, this makes me feel separate.

[cetus]

6 hours ago, Danda said:

The thing is that I am just confused how these perspectives fit into bigger picture (absolute)? 

@Danda The absolute allows the space in which infinite perspectives may arise. Infinite perspectives of even itself. Whether someone is fully awakened, slightly awakened, or nowhere near awakened "robot without consciousness" each needs to be seen (and respected) as separate aspects of the infiniteness of the absolute. Sooner or later all separate individual perspectives will come to full realization that the many is really the one. Even though for some that may not happen until their last breath. But that too would be just one of the infinite possibilities of perspectives to be experienced before the separate beingness folds back into the absolute. 

'On the absolute beingness appears- and out of that comes illusion. And the illusion occupies the truth'.  The truth is there are no perspectives. For there to be perspectives there would have to be two.

So that's my perspective of infinite perspectives arising on the absolute. Cherish each for it's uniqueness and have compassion when the individual perspective suffers. It wants nothing more than to find it's way home.

[Danda]

@cetus56 Great explanation. I love it.

To make it clear once again:

I am at one of many stages of this journey. I am aware, at least at some degree, that all there is, is what's happening right know. Nothing is hidden, it is just matter of consciousness.

But when I look others into their eyes, it is very easy to locate and project a perspective into their head. But their perspective is just concept, it is not happening. Or in other words, I am not conscious of it.

And maybe I will be conscious to that degree one day. Maybe it is all right there, right now and I am just not seeing it. Maybe every bit of this being is conscious and me saying it is not happening is just my ignorance. 

And by trying to conceptualize about it, I am just creating more fog around myself, fog that allows me to see myself and my believes but not the infitness of being.

 

[cetus]

5 minutes ago, Danda said:

And maybe I will be conscious to that degree one day.

@Danda Sure. Practice dropping the "I" from that sentence. Consciousness aware of consciousness. No ownership.

A little off the subject but check out this video of Mooji. It's a good one. He points directly to enlightenment. 

"Are you in front of the lens of the absolute? Or are you behind the lens of the absolute?" -or both? 

That may help to answer your question.

 

[Nahm]

Do you guys think solipsism is the real truth, or is it just me?

 

[Joseph Maynor]

It's funny that we're arguing over the answer here.  There's a paradox in there too.  One of the things I realized is that when you shack-up with the mind you get fleas.  Being just is.  All rationalizations are thought-stories.

You are non-symbolic, pure, empty, awareness, in the present moment.  And that is Being.  Of course this is just a monkey-mind description.  You have to see what this monkey-speak is pointing you to.  Where in this do you find people or things?  You are no-thing.  I take this literally.  Well, what it's pointing to that is.  

Edited September 25, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[dorg]

On 9/25/2017 at 9:46 AM, Maxx said:

logically there cannot be any doubt that there are "other perspectives". I think what is the point of your post is the lack of really feeling connected to other people. And this can only come with great love and compassion and the dissolution of the sense of feeling separate.

Yes, there are other perspectives, other views, other people, in logic, in thought. Self and other - ie, separation - is in thought (logic) only.

However true experience is not in thought.

Edited September 25, 2017 by dorg

[dorg]

17 minutes ago, Maxx said:

You are theorizing.

I was attempting to point to the difference between what is and thought content.

Edited September 25, 2017 by dorg

[Brimstone]

Does separation exist in consciousness? Apart from your own direct experience have you honestly enquired deeply enough to go beyond your self? The potential and possibilities to explore and see are endless if you let go of 'my' and simply experience Story as a whole. Yet this idea too fails.

At the end of the day, every truth that you hold up to the great Truth, falls away and fails in even coming close to what 'It' Is as the experience will always be filtered by a limited set of conditions.

That is why what you experience is so precious and beautiful.

That is why from a truthful state of awareness absolute humility Is born as you can never possible know anything, and how the source of creation can truly be known as unconditional in its giving and loving, so that 'no one' could ever possibly be unaligned with the unfolding of existence, and thus none of us can possibly ever escape illusion, unless we accept that I am not right as a base.

What is honestly gained by arguing with anyone else? I only see that I am right because I see you as wrong, for that is how right and wrong is positioned to cloud ones view, and what separates us from the garden state? In other words as soon as we eat from the tree of knowledge we seperate ourself from ......

 

[Danda]

Being is so Infinity that it musts contain even the thing we call perspective. What more, every possible perspective. So even though perspectives do not happen in the heads od others, they are there. Just becouse they musts be.

This way we could explain just everything. This is why it does not seem like sufficient answer. But maybe it is

[Nahm]

It's the same as a dream where you wake up and talk about what someone else was saying in your dream. It was really you,, but it sure seemed like someone in your dream held a perspective. But truly, there aren't any perspectives, just something to do other than be infinite and alone.