Moments

[Forestluv]

44 minutes ago, soos_mite_ah said:

Not to bring spiral dynamic into this but sometimes I feel that people are so focused on stage yellow and turquoise that they don't properly integrate green and that some people who claim to be yellow don't have the best foundation of integration because they are so concerned with getting towards the highest stages as soon as possible. 

Yes, intellectual yellow has not embodied green. It can be heartbreaking.

If someone wants to be involved with healthy green, I would recommend getting involved with a breath group online. 

I live in a small isolated town and there aren't any spiritual groups here. At times, I wish we could have a small heart-centered group that meets and does some type of spiritual ritual. Breathing, chanting, meditation, sharing - whatever. 

1 hour ago, Loving Radiance said:

Was your voice shunned? I haven't read from anybody saying something like that about your post of holding Leo to a higher standard.

I've been a mod for over three years on the forum and have spent about 20 hrs/week diving deep into who gets shunned, warned and banned. I'm the one who often does it.  I know the insides well and know what cannot be said. My voice would try to unite the group very differently than Leo. My approach would balance intellect and heart. Yet Leo wants to coalesce everyone around his intellectual constructs and protect the community from outside threats. There is value in that.  Yet my input would be seen as undermining that effort - especially coming from a mod. 

How can a heart-centered mod participate in a forum that lacks heart, emotional connection and empathy? And a forum in which the administrator doesn't value these components? After losing one of our beloved forum members due to jumping off a bridge, Leo posts how he is amused that he has to create a video telling us not jumping off a bridge and another video telling us not to stick our dicks in a woodchopper. This epitomizes lack of heart, emotional connection and empathy. Especially given that Sunny's sister came to the site to help us and was reading that thread. It's absolutely gut-wrenching. And Leo saw nothing wrong with it. He let it stand and he didn't contact me about it. 

A mod cannot hold Leo to a higher standard because in an authoritarian structure like Actualized, the ruler is the highest standard. No one is allowed to be at a higher standard to hold the ruler to a higher standard - even temporarily. Authoritarian structures have their advantages as well as drawbacks. I do not have the abilities / skills necessary to lead a community like Actualized. 

[Forestluv]

2 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

@Forestluv why did you want to be a mod ?

Leo asked me if I wanted to be a mod four years ago. My initial reaction was shock. At the time, I was deeply involved into the scientific paradigm. Yet I was also open-minded and curious. I knew I was missing something. Leo holds a special place in my heart because he was the only one who could penetrate my bubble. He could do so because of his intellect. I could not dismiss Leo as some irrational woo-wooer. He was the first person I encountered that had strong intellect and "something more" and I got very curious about that something more. He inspired me to explore consciousness and was a big influence on my expansion. I also wanted to be part of a community that explores consciousness and supports each other. Being a mod was a great way to support such a community. 

Over the last four years, I did a lot of work in areas of emotion, heart-awakening, divine feminine, intuition and empathy. These were my biggest deficiencies. I could have intellectual conversations, yet there was a sense I was missing something. 

The more I've developed, the more it becomes obvious that the forum lacks emotional integration, aspects of yin / feminine and empathy. Not only is there lacking, these aspects often getting beaten up by bullies. I've stayed a mod in an effort to keep the forum balanced and give a voice to those marginalized and bullied via hyper masculine and intellect. Yet it's been an uphill battle, especially when Leo doesn't value it. There is a reason there aren't many female mods on the forum and why female mods quit or marginalize themself to the periphery. The crap @Ananta had to go through was abhorrent. There was no support from Leo and he was often apathetic to issues (he wouldn't even respond to us). Ananta and I were the only ones willing to moderate the dating subforum during a toxic stretch and we had to put up with disgusting crap. Ananta got it much worse than me because she is female. 

I've always had this hope that our community was about to have a major breaktrhough. There were glimmers of hope that Leo was developing in heart areas or at least recognizing the value of it in us mods. Yet the breakthrough never came. To me, we are moving in the opposite direction. I think there will be lots of intellectual insights, yet deficiencies in heart/emotion/empathy and a lot of toxicity. I'm the most prominent mod in going after toxicity and trolls - and they are very sneaky and manipulative. I don't put up with it. And I've received countless disgusting PMs that are profane and threatening. Yet I put up with it and I won't back down. There is currently a mega troll that has created over 40 accounts over the last year. I've spent many hours of shitty work tracking his accounts down and I've received many disgusting PMs from him. I'm the only mod willing to do this. And the other mods refer the worst trouble makers my way because I can hunt them down. 

Yet the recent events have broken my heart. Both Sunny's death and Leo's response to it. There is a disturbing energy on the forum to me right now and for my own mental and physical health I think I need to distance myself to what I see as unhealthy energy. Especially since I'm not getting any support from Leo. He isn't valuing certain aspects that I value. 

[Proserpina]

@Forestluv I know I'm not a regular user and I can labeled as a part of that insensitive camp (however I thought it insensitive not to consider SoonHei's perspective as well) but I just want to say your presence  here as a moderator is incredibly valuable.  You lift the whole consciousness of the forum with your influence.  Please don't give up moderation.  The forum would not be the same without you.

[Forestluv]

@Proserpina @Preety_India Thank you. I'm heartbroken right now. I'll give it a few days and see where I'm at. 

[Ananta]

1 hour ago, Forestluv said:

There is a reason there aren't many female mods on the forum and why female mods quit or marginalize themself to the periphery. The crap @Ananta had to go through was abhorrent. There was no support from Leo and he was often apathetic to issues (he wouldn't even respond to us). Ananta and I were the only ones willing to moderate the dating subforum during a toxic stretch and we had to put up with disgusting crap. Ananta got it much worse than me because she is female. 

I was happy to be a mod in the beginning. It was something I never thought I'd do and when I was asked, I was honored and took it seriously. I was disheartened that there wasn't much (or any) Leo support really. My main mentor as a mod was @Forestluv. Always willing to answer questions and got back to me timely. I also enjoyed searching out ppl with multiple or banned accounts, as well as obvious trolls. It suited me well, for awhile, then the serious negativity and disgusting PM's started. ? Not fun. I wound up abandoning the dating subforum for healthier ground, as FL said we were the main mods moderating it at the time. Leo seemed to take over that subsection, so I was done with it. 

As far as Sunny @SoonHei, I'm soooooo shocked and sad that he did what he did and that he thought he had to ... he obviously had misunderstood the teaching, imo. Which is heartbreaking ?.

He was the absolute ? most peaceful, loving and stand up guy on this forum and NOTHING should take away from that fact. ❤ RIP Sunny

 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Ananta

[Forestluv]

6 minutes ago, Ananta said:

I also enjoyed searching out ppl with multiple or banned accounts, as well as obvious trolls. 

@Ananta And you were so good at it! I have to do it solo now ? 

[Ananta]

2 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

@Ananta ? ? 

Right back at ya! ?

[Ananta]

1 minute ago, Forestluv said:

And you were so good at it! I have to do it soli now ? 

Ty ?? 

[StarStruck]

Leo being cold hearted and blunt is very Russian. Like Russia's symbol the bear. It will be difficult to be heart centered if he doesn't see it. 

[Loving Radiance]

@Forestluv Yesterday I couldn't look up this journal (was an error of some sorts) and I thought you had it hidden.

I assumed mods & Leo help each other when feeling blindspots in one another. Yes, here on the forum it is predominantly done out of winning a discussion and putting oneself on a pedestal, but I felt that you as mods are committed to mutual growth no matter the hierarchy. But I get the "never outshine your master" dynamic.

[Forestluv]

5 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

This forum is heavily centered towards understanding reality through intellectualism. A lot of consciousness work is directed towards transcending the mind, and nearly nothing is directed towards heart matters. Understanding concepts do not heal the wounds of the heart which seeks for unity on another level.

I agree. At a certain point it becomes unhealthy to a community. For one of my breathwork groups, I am the only male. It's almost all feminine nature. Vulnerability, surrender, appreciation, gratitude, love, emotions, connectedness, cooperation, energetics, community etc. After the breath, there is a time for integration and sharing. The facilitator always takes a moment to thank me for holding space for masculine / yang. It's not an intellectual thing analyzing "well, what is 'masculine / yang'? why would only a male person have it? And what does it mean to be male? Is that a social construct? Let's deconstruct this?". . . That type of masculine/yang energy isn't within the group. And she doesn't say it for PR, branding or to advance herself. When she thanks me for holding masculine / yang space within the group, it comes from the heart. There is energy and feeling - gratitude and connection. And it's genuine. 

There is just so little of that here. And I've got caught in intellectualization/analysis/deconstruction here many times here. It is highly valued here. Lots of yang, yet very little yin. And what happens when someone expresses yin energy? Are they appreciated? Or are they intellectualized away? 

What is the consequence of a community when it becomes 98% yang energy? Yin won't have a voice or a meaningful impact. There is a loss of diversity. And aspects of Yang may become toxic. Similar to the ecosystem of a forest. If all the flowers and insects are removed, the forest ecosystem would suffer.

I'm not suggesting 50% yin on the forum, yet allowing 10% space and appreciation for yin would be a huge difference. Allow her to take a breath once in a while. 

So, how could we integrate a little more yin into our current situation? Rather that distancing from Sunny and labeling him a fringe 1 in a million fool that misinterpreted teachings, we could acknowledge that he was an exceptionally loving, kind person that was a beloved member of our community. Rather than portraying Sunny as someone that was mentally ill and suffering, we could acknowledge that Sunny was happy and full of life. Rather than pushing Sunny away, we could introspect and relate to Sunny. Teachings that the body is illusory, everything is a dream and we can transcend the dream character can lead to some 'interesting' places. If I introspect, I can relate somewhat. I've been in places in which I wanted to wake up and transcend the dream character to move on to the next dream. As Sunny said, not to escape or to end. Rather to transcend to a higher conscious state. I've also been in places in which I felt nobody understood me and then I find one person who does understand me. I know what that impact is like. . . This type of introspection is healthy for one's self and community, yet it is not allowed on a forum that is 98% yang and has a hardcore yang narrative. There is some truth to that narrative, yet it is super hard core and rigid. 

Some more yin would be coming together as a community and donating to the family to help support them. We could have a couple threads in memory of Sunny, so his wonderful spirit of love and kindness can live on in the forum. He made many beautiful posts and YT videos. Yet again, this is a yin heart space, which currently isn't accepted on the forum because it goes counter to what yang sees as bad PR, branding and threats to an organization. Again, there is some truth to that, yet I would say it's a hardcore yang position that is highly rigid.

5 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

There is a lot of masculine energy in this forum. Whatever the quality type of that masculine energy, it seems like it always seek to protect the more vulnerable feminine energy. Either by relegating it to specific environment or repressing/suppressing it because it can't be afforded.

I'm telling myself that these displays of masculine and shadow masculine energy do not mean that the feminine isn't present but it is relegated to unconscious part. If you want to find these people's feminine energy, you'll find it in their subconscious motives for behaving the way they do.

Whenever they write insensitive things, it is for the sake of distancing. Protecting this forum, is how they protect what is in fact a space of the internet where they heart, empathy love, understanding, introspection, compassion and compassion is stimulated.

That is a very optimistic way of looking at it, yet it's hard for me to see it that way. For example, I can see trying to distance from Sunny and portraying him as a foolish YT viewer to protect the forum from nefarious outside threats. I think there is some truth to that. I suppose that could be seen as a community trying to protect something they subconsciously love and feel a sense of belonging. That's just not how I'm oriented. If a beloved member of my breathgroup died, my first inclination wouldn't be "It's all his fault!! This will be bad for PR!! We need to protect ourselves from people trying to use this to harm us!!". That would be my reaction if a ceiling collapsed in a storm. Not if a beloved member of the community died. Yet I also understand that not everyone has a sense of humanism and some people express a sense of humanism in different ways. 

5 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

Leo is trying here to distance himself emotionally through rationalization. He's also identified with being smart so his ego has a huge shadow towards whatever he deems as stupid, hence the violence in these words I think.

Good points. I hadn't thought of it like that. I've taught over 1,000 students in person and I can tell you calling a student stupid is a very delicate issue. The question becomes one of priority. Is the highest priority to create an environment that is conducive for learning and growth? If so, calling a student stupid nearly always is a deterrence. Not just for that student, yet for the entire class. It is basic pedagogy. If a student asks me a question in class and I call them a fool with a stupid question - that nearly always has a negative impact on them and the entire class. It creates an environment that is not unsafe and uncomfortable. This is a basic tenant of DEI (diversity, equity and inclusion). I have to spend a lot of effort trying to unwind that type of "you're stupid" conditioning in my students. A teacher who calls his students stupid is generally trying to distance himself - possibly due to insecurity or arrogance. It's the opposite of empathy. And empathic teacher would be able to relate. They would remember back when they were a student and how uncomfortable they were asking questions in class, with anxiety that they may be judged as stupid by the teacher and their peers. Such as teacher may be respond to a 'stupid' question with "I'm glad you asked that question because this is a common confusion for students, so clearing it up can be helpful to everyone". Or "from one perspective, that's a really good question for another class. Yet here we are talking about xxx, so it doesn't quit fit". Yet there is also a threshold. If I'm teaching an advanced genetics course and I student keeps asking questions like "What is DNA?", they are too far beyond. Yet I still wouldn't call them stupid. I would get them into an introductory biology class. 

5 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

It is very common for the feminine energy to be marginalized and relegated where it doesn't bother these days... It's even the standard. A death triggers a lot of emotionality, which is from this specific principle and not well seen.

On the positive side, this can help me expand my empathy through experiential learning. I often her women speak about being marginalized in male-dominated environments. Yet the males respond by saying "Well just speak up! Don't play a victim! You are marginalizing yourself!". There is some truth to that, yet such males also don't understand the energetics of asymmetric power structures and marginalization. Another perspective would be to see it as an observer. For example, at a recent job interview one of the candidates was an assertive male with masculine energy. The other candidate was a soft-spoken woman with feminine energy. They both had a skillset, yet the bias was clearly for the assertive male with masculine energy. The feminine skills of the woman weren't even recognized. I had to bring them to the attention of the committee, which they considered secondary and not "real skills". The position was for a botanist. As the field component in the course, the masculine male proposed taking students in the local nature center and teaching them how to identify and memorize every plant family. The feminine female proposed a field course in which they all create a garden together in the local nature center. Their goal would be to create a highly diverse sustainable garden with various plants and pollinators. To do so, they would need to learn about climate, different forms of flowering plants, pollinators etc. Not only are they creating a community of plants and pollinators, the teacher is also creating a community of students and wanted to expand that by inviting the local town community to participate. I see this as a wonderful idea involving diversity, inclusion, community building and experiential learning. Yet the committee was not impressed at all. Yet to be fair, she was so passive that I question whether she could have pulled it off as the leader. She didn't show leadership skills and I saw her as more of an assistant, than a lead professor. Yet I saw a lot of skills in her that the males on the committee did not. One male even mocked her as "stupid". He is the retiring masculine male we are replacing. Perhaps he had a shadow to her feminine abilities. 

Another area of learning is actually experiencing it. So here I am, experiencing the marginalization of yin myself within a yang-dominant environment. This is one of the best ways to develop empathic understanding / knowing. For example, I'm not better at relating to female colleagues (or females on this forum). . . Notice how Leo often lectures females from a male perspective in the dating section. That has truth from a male perspective, yet he doesn't have the experiential empathic understanding from within a female perspective. To do so, he would need to enter such feminine / yin domains, which he doesn't seem willing to do. Which is fine, there are plenty of other realms to explore - yet he will just be lacking empathic understanding and won't be able to connect through certain channels. For example, I think it would be safe to say that the two of us can connect through a certain channel that we cannot with Leo. 

3 hours ago, Loving Radiance said:

@Forestluv 

I assumed mods & Leo help each other when feeling blindspots in one another. 

I wish that was the case. That would be so wonderful!

[Forestluv]

Murder, Mystery and Makeup

Baily Sarian is a YT personality. In her videos, she tells stories of mysterious serial killers as she puts on makeup. She is a very good story teller and very good with makeup. She is a type of artist. Her videos get millions of views - nearly all women. I'd estimate 99% women. 

Why are many women fascinated by serial killers? It seems counter-intuitive. Women are the victims of serial killers that have deranged, violent minds. Yet here we have millions of women watching Baily Sarian tell stories about serial killers. In my own life experience, I've met many women with fascination with serial killers. Many of my female students have revealed to me their fascination in private. Yet they keep it secret. I've never seen a woman be openly transparent. It's too taboo, which I think fuels the fascination. To get a sense if a woman might have this intrigue, I may casually state my interest in abnormal psychology - weird ways the mind works. Safer topics would be things like depression or schizophrenia. Next level would be sociopathy or psychopathy. Yet there can't be an energy of stigma, judgement or creepiness. It's a very sensitive area. Then, one might casually say "Yea, I watched a documentary on serial killers which was fascinating". . . I've noticed it's much harder for a man to connect with a woman on this intrigue. I imagine it would be much easier for two women to chat about this intrigue together. 

What is the reaction of most people to the mindset of serial killers. Most people react with repulsion and label the person a sicko that deserves to rot in jail. This has some truth to it, yet it is also a block to exploring other aspects. This mindset won't allow for curiosity about how a serial killer is formed and what their mentality is. There behavior is horrendous from one perspective, yet they've also led interesting lives. To see this takes a higher level of open-mindedness and curiosity. One of the blocks is that if someone is curious to learn about a serial killer, then they are condoning the behavior and they themself have sick mind. The next level is a deeper curiosity of what that mindset is actually like to the point one almost experiences it and 'gets it' from the perspective of the serial killer. This isn't an observer from a distance, it's actually crawling into the mind 1st person. This takes a special mind to do since there are risks of trauma and psychosis. An example would be a method actor. This is a method in which the actor immerses themself in environments that displace an old mindset with a new mindset - so they actually become the new mindset. Yet this has risks. Some method actors couldn't come back from the new character they adopted. The woman in the movie Psycho was a method actor that got so deep into becoming a woman being murdered, that she lost touch with what was "real" and what was "imagined". Other method actors have gone insane or committed suicide during or after their movie roles. 

I have a fascination with both "abnormal" psychology and delving into different mindsets to get a sense of what it's actually like. Yet from a personal view, this has a danger of not being able to restabalize. For example, I've gone deep into what it would be like to be held in solitary confinement, postpartum disorder, multiple personality and psychopathy. I've gone so deep into this method acting, that I've needed professional therapy to pull me out. And there were aspects of mini-traumas. One thing I've learned to help me shift back toward "normal" is to change my relationship to it as if it was a dream. We've all had deeply disturbing dreams, yet the impact isn't deep when the mind categorizes it as "just a dream". You could have a deeply disturbing dream and wake up shaking in tears, yet then realize "Oh, it was just a dream", then shake it off and move on with your day. For example, one might dream that they were psychotic and being abused in mental institution, then wake up and realize it was just a dream. It might have some lingering effects, yet it wouldn't be traumatic as if it actually happened. Yet this is much more difficult to do in "real" life. If someone experienced the harm anxiety of postpartum in real life, there is a much deeper impact on the mind and body. It's much more difficult to shake it off as "just a dream". The mind and body becomes entangled with the experience and identity. 

For a couple years, I tried to learn how to lucid dream. I tried reality checks, wake-sleep-wake cycles, dream journaling etc. I didn't have much success. Yet oddly, I had moments of lucid dreaming while "awake". I honestly didn't know if I was awake or dreaming. I started doing reality checks while awake to see if I was awake. Then distinctions between dream and awake begin to break down. Often, spiritual people use the metaphor that "life is a dream", yet this is a concept. The direct experience is very different. 

I'm quite intrigued by Sunny's story - his experience and mindset. If you have labeled Sunny a "fool that misinterpreted teachings", you will confine yourself to one realm and will not be able to enter other realms of exploration. This is a self-protection mechanism. If a mind labels Sunny "a fool that misinterpreted teachings", it can stay in it's safe zone. Similar to labeling someone "crazy" or "psychotic". One can distance themself and avoid going there, because going there can be threatening. 

Above I described three levels of exploration: 1) Labeling as "foolish", "psychotic" and pushing away, 2) having curiosity to learn about a mindset and 3) having curiosity so deep to experience the mindset. Overall, the forum is at level 1. The main reason is that there is a strong authoritarian leader that has set a narrative of "he was a fool, mentally ill" etc. that misinterpreted teachings. This has truth, yet is contracted within one realm. It also serves to stabalize an unstable community into one shared narrative. As well, it helps to protect a community from outside threats. Notice how nearly the entire forum community as accepted the narrative. It takes metacognition to see that this is only one realm within a larger network of realms. Very few minds can do this. One reason I'm able to do it is because of direct experiential learning and curiosity to explore. When someone tells me "this is how it is", my orientation is to see that ISness and then see other perspectives. Sunny was both foolish and non-foolish. Sunny had understandings of dualities integrated with nonduality. In his writings, he asks questions of whether to jump was foolish or non-foolish.

I'm curious if Leo is consciously aware that he is contracting the story into one realm and has rationalized doing so. Or, if he is contracted within that realm and can only consciously see the "foolish" side to Sunny. There are a lot of pressures on him to only see the "foolish" side. Inspecting the non-foolish side is the hard road and would take effort and risk. 

The secondary reason for the forum being at level 1 is because it's a simple, easy narrative to say Sunny was "foolish and misinterpreted teachings". It takes much more effort and curiosity to explore Sunny's experience and potential mindset. My prediction is that if the situation was framed differently the majority of people on the forum would be open and curious to explore level 2. For example, suppose this occurred to someone in another spiritual community that actualized had no relation to. Imagine there was a documentary produced that went deep into lucid dreaming, spirituality, transcendence and death. In this case, I can see the majority of the forum being open to discuss and explore this. I could see an active thread on it. This is happening with other spiritual communities. I have a friend in another spiritual community that has never heard of actualized. We recently had a conversation about life as a dream, lucid dreaming, transcendence and death. Since she didn't label Sunny as a "fool" and has no attachment/identification to actualized, we were able to explore various mindsets together. 

Yet I predict very few people would want to venture into level 3. People have other stuff going into life and don't want to spend time and effort diving into mindsets of lucid dreaming and transcendence. As well, it is threatening. Most people would not want to dive so deep into the mindset that they know what it's like because that conscious space involves transcending a life dream via jumping. Over the last two days, I've explored these waters using my previous experience, Sunny's writings, my imagination and trying to energetically/empathically connect. A key through an initial door is to come to understand that it isn't an escape or end - it is a transcendence - as Sunny wrote. Again, this is a different realm and very few minds would want to enter that realm to see what it's like. I myself have had to pull myself back form going to deep into the waters for my own mental health and stability. Yet it adds a new twist. Previously, I would pull back from deep waters by changing my relationship with it to "it was just a dream". Yet the twist here is that the deep waters itself contains "it's just a dream". To me, those waters are both intriguing and dangerous.  

 

[RendHeaven]

23 hours ago, Forestluv said:

The forum has turned into intellectual masculine gladiation.

bahaha

[Raptorsin7]

2 hours ago, Forestluv said:

Murder, Mystery and Makeup

Baily Sarian is a YT personality. In her videos, she tells stories of mysterious serial killers as she puts on makeup. She is a very good story teller and very good with makeup. She is a type of artist. Her videos get millions of views - nearly all women. I'd estimate 99% women. 

Why are many women fascinated by serial killers? It seems counter-intuitive. Women are the victims of serial killers that have deranged, violent minds. Yet here we have millions of women watching Baily Sarian tell stories about serial killers. In my own life experience, I've met many women with fascination with serial killers. Many of my female students have revealed to me their fascination in private. Yet they keep it secret. I've never seen a woman be openly transparent. It's too taboo, which I think fuels the fascination. To get a sense if a woman might have this intrigue, I may casually state my interest in abnormal psychology - weird ways the mind works. Safer topics would be things like depression or schizophrenia. Next level would be sociopathy or psychopathy. Yet there can't be an energy of stigma, judgement or creepiness. It's a very sensitive area. Then, one might casually say "Yea, I watched a documentary on serial killers which was fascinating". . . I've noticed it's much harder for a man to connect with a woman on this intrigue. I imagine it would be much easier for two women to chat about this intrigue together. 

What is the reaction of most people to the mindset of serial killers. Most people react with repulsion and label the person a sicko that deserves to rot in jail. This has some truth to it, yet it is also a block to exploring other aspects. This mindset won't allow for curiosity about how a serial killer is formed and what their mentality is. There behavior is horrendous from one perspective, yet they've also led interesting lives. To see this takes a higher level of open-mindedness and curiosity. One of the blocks is that if someone is curious to learn about a serial killer, then they are condoning the behavior and they themself have sick mind. The next level is a deeper curiosity of what that mindset is actually like to the point one almost experiences it and 'gets it' from the perspective of the serial killer. This isn't an observer from a distance, it's actually crawling into the mind 1st person. This takes a special mind to do since there are risks of trauma and psychosis. An example would be a method actor. This is a method in which the actor immerses themself in environments that displace an old mindset with a new mindset - so they actually become the new mindset. Yet this has risks. Some method actors couldn't come back from the new character they adopted. The woman in the movie Psycho was a method actor that got so deep into becoming a woman being murdered, that she lost touch with what was "real" and what was "imagined". Other method actors have gone insane or committed suicide during or after their movie roles. 

I have a fascination with both "abnormal" psychology and delving into different mindsets to get a sense of what it's actually like. Yet from a personal view, this has a danger of not being able to restabalize. For example, I've gone deep into what it would be like to be held in solitary confinement, postpartum disorder, multiple personality and psychopathy. I've gone so deep into this method acting, that I've needed professional therapy to pull me out. And there were aspects of mini-traumas. One thing I've learned to help me shift back toward "normal" is to change my relationship to it as if it was a dream. We've all had deeply disturbing dreams, yet the impact isn't deep when the mind categorizes it as "just a dream". You could have a deeply disturbing dream and wake up shaking in tears, yet then realize "Oh, it was just a dream", then shake it off and move on with your day. For example, one might dream that they were psychotic and being abused in mental institution, then wake up and realize it was just a dream. It might have some lingering effects, yet it wouldn't be traumatic as if it actually happened. Yet this is much more difficult to do in "real" life. If someone experienced the harm anxiety of postpartum in real life, there is a much deeper impact on the mind and body. It's much more difficult to shake it off as "just a dream". The mind and body becomes entangled with the experience and identity. 

For a couple years, I tried to learn how to lucid dream. I tried reality checks, wake-sleep-wake cycles, dream journaling etc. I didn't have much success. Yet oddly, I had moments of lucid dreaming while "awake". I honestly didn't know if I was awake or dreaming. I started doing reality checks while awake to see if I was awake. Then distinctions between dream and awake begin to break down. Often, spiritual people use the metaphor that "life is a dream", yet this is a concept. The direct experience is very different. 

I'm quite intrigued by Sunny's story - his experience and mindset. If you have labeled Sunny a "fool that misinterpreted teachings", you will confine yourself to one realm and will not be able to enter other realms of exploration. This is a self-protection mechanism. If a mind labels Sunny "a fool that misinterpreted teachings", it can stay in it's safe zone. Similar to labeling someone "crazy" or "psychotic". One can distance themself and avoid going there, because going there can be threatening. 

Above I described three levels of exploration: 1) Labeling as "foolish", "psychotic" and pushing away, 2) having curiosity to learn about a mindset and 3) having curiosity so deep to experience the mindset. Overall, the forum is at level 1. The main reason is that there is a strong authoritarian leader that has set a narrative of "he was a fool, mentally ill" etc. that misinterpreted teachings. This has truth, yet is contracted within one realm. It also serves to stabalize an unstable community into one shared narrative. As well, it helps to protect a community from outside threats. Notice how nearly the entire forum community as accepted the narrative. It takes metacognition to see that this is only one realm within a larger network of realms. Very few minds can do this. One reason I'm able to do it is because of direct experiential learning and curiosity to explore. When someone tells me "this is how it is", my orientation is to see that ISness and then see other perspectives. Sunny was both foolish and non-foolish. Sunny had understandings of dualities integrated with nonduality. In his writings, he asks questions of whether to jump was foolish or non-foolish.

I'm curious if Leo is consciously aware that he is contracting the story into one realm and has rationalized doing so. Or, if he is contracted within that realm and can only consciously see the "foolish" side to Sunny. There are a lot of pressures on him to only see the "foolish" side. Inspecting the non-foolish side is the hard road and would take effort and risk. 

The secondary reason for the forum being at level 1 is because it's a simple, easy narrative to say Sunny was "foolish and misinterpreted teachings". It takes much more effort and curiosity to explore Sunny's experience and potential mindset. My prediction is that if the situation was framed differently the majority of people on the forum would be open and curious to explore level 2. For example, suppose this occurred to someone in another spiritual community that actualized had no relation to. Imagine there was a documentary produced that went deep into lucid dreaming, spirituality, transcendence and death. In this case, I can see the majority of the forum being open to discuss and explore this. I could see an active thread on it. This is happening with other spiritual communities. I have a friend in another spiritual community that has never heard of actualized. We recently had a conversation about life as a dream, lucid dreaming, transcendence and death. Since she didn't label Sunny as a "fool" and has no attachment/identification to actualized, we were able to explore various mindsets together. 

Yet I predict very few people would want to venture into level 3. People have other stuff going into life and don't want to spend time and effort diving into mindsets of lucid dreaming and transcendence. As well, it is threatening. Most people would not want to dive so deep into the mindset that they know what it's like because that conscious space involves transcending a life dream via jumping. Over the last two days, I've explored these waters using my previous experience, Sunny's writings, my imagination and trying to energetically/empathically connect. A key through an initial door is to come to understand that it isn't an escape or end - it is a transcendence - as Sunny wrote. Again, this is a different realm and very few minds would want to enter that realm to see what it's like. I myself have had to pull myself back form going to deep into the waters for my own mental health and stability. Yet it adds a new twist. Previously, I would pull back from deep waters by changing my relationship with it to "it was just a dream". Yet the twist here is that the deep waters itself contains "it's just a dream". To me, those waters are both intriguing and dangerous.  

 

I've had thoughts similar to Sunny. Logically it follows. If this is just a dream and the truth is that reality is all good and we simply creating reality for our own experience then why not just die and create a new dream rather than wait 50 years etc because you will die eventually. Most people will live their entire lives without experiencing love, deep joy bliss etc, but when they die they will get all that and more. From their perspective what is the point of living and not just killing themselves?

But at the same time, the guy left his 2 kids to grow up without a father. And if you read his posts there's a sense that he is parroting some spiritual tropes without an understanding of how they fit into reality at large. 

[Proserpina]

@Forestluv  It's like everyone just suddenly forgot what Sunny was actually like.  He may have had a somewhat scattered or misunderstood thought process and reasoning for his action but if you look at who he was as a person some of it begins to make sense. I personally see it as an atypical Mahasamadhi. 

[RendHeaven]

2 hours ago, Forestluv said:

The main reason is that there is a strong authoritarian leader that has set a narrative of "he was a fool, mentally ill" etc. that misinterpreted teachings. This has truth, yet is contracted within one realm. It also serves to stabalize an unstable community into one shared narrative. As well, it helps to protect a community from outside threats. Notice how nearly the entire forum community as accepted the narrative.

I know with unwavering intuitive certainty that Leo's most recent 2 hour video was ALL about damage control.

Leo knows, as do I, that all beings are imagined, Likewise with "physical death."

So if anyone is to have compassion for Sunny's in-the-moment jumping experience, it ought to be Leo!

Sunny's actions (from the stories we heard) were done out of Love.

He literally killed himself for Love. This is, in a certain sense, in-line with Leo's teachings - and I think Leo knows this. 

Except Leo simply cannot ever admit any of this for the social survival of Actualized.org. He has his entire life's work to protect.

And so, protect he will.

In his recent video, Leo furiously draws the line between "ego death" and "physical death" - advocating for the former and not the latter - despite, according to him, the two ultimately being the same - and then proceeds to label anyone going for the latter as a "misinterpreting fool."

To be clear - I'm not advocating for physical suicide myself, for social reasons.

What I am advocating for though, is a recognition of Sunny's Love - and we must un-label him as a "misinterpreting fool" if we are to do this.

---

P.S. if it sounds like I am glorifying death here, in a certain sense I am. What Sunny did was beautiful. To call it ugly or wrong is itself the misinterpretation! But I can only say this personally because I understand the ineffable perfection of the cycle of life and death. I dare not say this straight-faced to someone living from survival-bias (out of compassion!)

I write as I do here, because of the context I heard - that Sunny died willingly and happily. Please, let's honor this.

Regarding the family members - this one is tricky. My heart extends out to them, for their suffering is undeniable. And who am I to tell them that "Sunny's death was not only illusory, but also beautiful"? - even if this is The Truth? Rather, I bite my lip - and share condolences, for that is what my heart says is the necessary public expression for this occasion.

What a weird position to be in! I believe Leo understands this. The only difference being, Leo additionally has a collective ego to uphold. So that's where his focus is.

[Forestluv]

3 hours ago, Raptorsin7 said:

I've had thoughts similar to Sunny. Logically it follows. If this is just a dream and the truth is that reality is all good and we simply creating reality for our own experience then why not just die and create a new dream rather than wait 50 years etc because you will die eventually. Most people will live their entire lives without experiencing love, deep joy bliss etc, but when they die they will get all that and more. From their perspective what is the point of living and not just killing themselves?

This is still within the context of a thing called "death". This is the standard realm we are all familiar with. Yet Sunny clearly stated he was not in this realm (or wanted to transcend it). He said it was not an escape nor an ending. It was a transcendence. He was happy and had a great life. Based on what we know, he wasn't trying to escape and end suffering. He wasn't trying to end this life in hope for a better reincarnated life. This is difficult for most people to understand because they are so oriented toward escaping suffering and gaining joy. 

An analogy, imagine you are walking in a forest and encounter a mountain lion. You will feel fear and want to escape from the lion. You want to survive. You have a gf and are planning on having a child. This is at the human/personal level. The person identifies as me and wants to do whats best for me. Here's the hard part. Imagine identification is with the entire forest. Now "me" = "the forest". So now what is best for "me"? Well, if "me" is the forest than it might be best that the lion eats the person. Notice how it's all "me". This sounds insane from a personal level, yet it is not insane from a transcendent level. . . In the opposite direction, there are misfolded proteins in your cells that get digested and recycled. Yet you don't care because "me" isn't a misfolded protein and you aren't concerned what's best for that misfolded protein. Rather "me" is ALL of the cells in "my" body and I care about what's best for the entire body. If misfolded proteins accumulate, all sorts of diseases result. Therefore it's best that those misfolded proteins get digested and recycled. 

From personal/human perspective, this won't make sense and it may even seem psychotic. . . How could someone compare a human being to a misfolded protein!!?? Yet from a transcendent perspective, notice how there is no "escape" or "ending". In the first example, after the person is eaten by a lion, "me" (the forest) still exists. The forest hasn't escaped itself or ended. Similarly, after the misfolded protein is digested there is still the human being. There was no "escape" or "ending". 

Now imagine a person is oscillating back and forth between identifying as "me" being the human body and "me" being the forest. Sometimes the identification is the entire forest, sometimes it is contracted within the human body. There may be desire to transcend attachment / identification to the human body and become the entire forest. At the human/personal level, this is madness and insanity. Yet at a transhuman metaphysical level, it is sane. 

And this isn't unique to actualized. Humans have been reaching these transcendent states for thousands of years. Analogies that life is a dream goes waaaay back in time. This is nothing new. 

2 hours ago, Proserpina said:

@Forestluv  It's like everyone just suddenly forgot what Sunny was actually like.  He may have had a somewhat scattered or misunderstood thought process and reasoning for his action but if you look at who he was as a person some of it begins to make sense. I personally see it as an atypical Mahasamadhi. 

Yes, at a human/personal level is was scattered and misunderstood reasoning. Yet at a transhuman metaphysical level, it gets trickier. I'm in no way suggesting killing oneself. Yet from a transhuman metaphysical level, the idea of "killing", "oneself" and "death" are very different. Notice how in spiritual circles there is metaphysical talk about how there is no birth or death. Yet when a being kills themself, the spiritual circle immediately snaps back to the human/personal level and says "Oh wait. . . yea. There is death. Believing there is no death is foolish". 

At this time, Leo is only willing to discuss the issue at the personal / human level. Not a transhuman / metaphysical level. 

@RendHeaven I agree with you. Yet I want to strongly stress that these are not Leo's teachings or actualized. Teachings about transcending the human mind-body, death is illusory, everything is a dream etc. is standard nonduality and metaphysics. We might consider it advanced, yet it is not unique to Leo or actualized. People like Deepak Chopra talk in these terms regularly. 

As well, Leo promotes transcendence via psychedelics. 

I understand why Leo would revert to the personal/human level because he is dealing with others at the personal/human level. If he communicated at a transhuman/metaphysical level (like we are in this thread), it would be misinterpreted and there would be a huge backlash. 

Yet at the same time, I'm really disappointed that Sunny has been portrayed as a "fool that misinterpreted teachings" and very few people on the forum questioned it. I thought more people were at a higher conscious level. I think it's a real issue regarding transcendence that should be addressed, rather than swept under the rug.  

I also think it is good that Leo is now stressing "ego death" rather than "physical death".

Again, I am not condoning suicide for transcendence. I'm trying to understand the conscious state in which a being would take their physical life to transcend it. I think this mentality is important to understand how we communicate. 

[Raphael]

3 hours ago, Forestluv said:

He was happy and had a great life. Based on what we know, he wasn't trying to escape and end suffering. He wasn't trying to end this life in hope for a better reincarnated life. This is difficult for most people to understand because they are so oriented toward escaping suffering and gaining joy.

 

3 hours ago, Forestluv said:

I'm trying to understand the conscious state in which a being would take their physical life to transcend it. I think this mentality is important to understand how we communicate. 

Looks like positive beliefs not aligned with material reality from my perspective. It's like being a work acholic and positively believing being able to work 70 hours / week for years without acknowledging that this is damaging the body. I think that many times the terms used on this forum are taken too  literally. When sentences like "you are god", "you are infinity", "you are love", "life doesn't matter", "life is a dream", "everything is fine", "everything is perfect" are constantly repeated so much in a discussion space some people will start to take that literally and it will cause them problems in functioning in life. Truth is behind these words and these words are just words in the end and when taken too literally they become dangerous because they aren't the truth but only pointers. This is the same problem that all religions have, words are confused for the truth.

Also, I noticed that this things happens much more often when the leader and the community use these terms over-assertively because it trigger emotions which then create belief systems. Something like that happened to me in the past with videos of Leo's that were more at stage orange. I consider that the over-assertive tone on videos like "How To Stop Being A Victim" or "How To Get Shit Done" contributed to one of my most traumatic period of my life.

[bejapuskas]

@Forestluv  Thank you for fighting this uphill battle. I have become aware of this myself recently, I hope I can be a good teammate.

[Forestluv]

Here is an example of over-intellectualization/conceptualization and the importance of integrating emotions and empathy.

A member posts about how we should be more non-judgmental to other members, even if we disagree. Another member replies that non-judgement is judgement.

In intellectual concepts, yes. . . non-judgement could be considered judgement. We can create all sorts of fancy constructs about this. For example, we could create a dualistic construct of non-judgement vs judgement and Judgement transcends both. We could create intellectual constructs that non-judgment needs the contrast of judgement to be non-judgement. Technically, any thought construct is a judgement. Right now, I hear birds chirping. That is a judgement because I am judging them to be bird chirps (rather than a pencil, tuna sandwich, ocean etc). As well, if I say "Those bird chirps are beautiful". That is a judgement.  

These types of conceptual constructs may have value, yet lets look at what they are missing. .  . They are missing non-intellectual energetics, feelings, empathy etc. 

When I first became a professor, occasionally a student came to my office to tell me about an anxiety disorder. In an effort to help them, I'd respond something like "OK, let's diagnose your problem and find a solution. Here are the college policies about students with anxiety disorders getting accommodations for exams. You will first need to go to the college psychologist so they can analyze you and verify that you have an anxiety disorder. They will then send me paperwork and you can then get an separate room and extra time on exams".

My intention was to help the student by analyzing (judging) their problem and finding a situation. Yet in another realm, how would this feel to the student? They would feel judged. And guess what? Students wouldn't come to my office unless absolutely necessary. In my evaluations, some students wrote about how I intelligent I was, yet I couldn't relate to students and have human conversations. 

Around that time, I had my first experiences with psychedelics and some of them involved extreme anxiety and panic. I got to experience what it was like. All sorts of nuances of anxiety and panic. Yet rather than simply intellectualize / conceptualize the experience - I integrated and embodied it. I can now much better relate to someone with anxiety disorders at an empathic level. Now, when a student enters my office with an anxiety disorder, I can feel it and I know what it feels like to experience it. Now, I may respond "Yea, sometimes I feel like that too. I kinda feels like xyz for me.". The student may respond "Omigosh, yes. That's kinda what it's like for me too. I was super nervous about talking to a professor about it. You are the only one I feel comfortable discussing it". We may discuss the experience more and then I may suggest a few things that have helped me with anxiety. The student may share a few things that helped them with anxiety. 

Notice in the above, we can create intellectual constructs about how judgement is happening. Yet it doesn't feel like judgement. It feels like non-judgement - in particular because of the empathic connection and understanding. It feels like connection and understanding. Imagine having experiences you don't think anyone else understands and then you meet that one person who gets it. There can be a tremoundous relief. Omigosh, I'm not a freak. This person gets it. Here, there is no intellectualization of whether it is judgement vs. non-judgement. That doesn't even exist. What exists are energetics of emotional and empathic connection.

Both have value, yet this forum is waaay skewed to hardcore intellectualization.