If We Just Die, Why Actualize?

[B Clear]

 

Hello all,

I am definitely on and working towards staying on the path of actualization and of awakening to enlightenment. But, a thought has come up often and today again whilst I was listening to @Leo Gura's latest video on distraction, so I wanted to put this question to you all…

If when we die, the individual ends, the personality ends, the self ends and goes back into the substrata that makes the all, what difference does it make whether we attain enlightenment or not?

I mean if you believe in reincarnation of the self - I can see why it would matter because then the self ‘comes back’ with a higher consciousness and therefore incarnates into a more evolved state..
But,
I have come to a different understanding of reincarnation and it no longer involves a continuation of self… that old version of reincarnation satisfied my ego very much as it saw it just as a continuation of itself, but as I realize the self, the ego is a finite ‘thing’ that lasts one lifetime and can be reduced greatly in that life time, then what would the difference be if I actualized if I attained enlightenment or not…?

Is that not still just a state of achievement for my ego’s experience in this life and it’s hope to continue after?

I really do not have the answers and only questions and to be honest have been having a bit of an existential crisis regarding all the beliefs that have carried me thus far.. for example the power of prayer, or the assistance of more evolved beings/forces… at the moment I don’t even know if those things are ‘real’

sigh..
Ok any helpful insights would be lovely,
Peace,
B

[Leo Gura]

How can you know that you die, if you don't know what you are?

Careful about putting the cart before the horse. The fact is, you don't know what death is.

The other problem you're stuck on is that you're still looking for a point, a purpose, a meaning to existence.

There isn't any. Nothing makes any difference. The notion of "difference" is itself an illusion. Everything is ONE. There can be no differences.

There is absolutely no difference between enlightenment and non-enlightenment. That's enlightenment! The ego is not going to get anything out of enlightenment. Enlightenment is not some grand purpose, it is the realization that nothing exists and everything is pointless.

Yes, of course you will face an existential crises. Because all beliefs are a lie, and you do not exist. Existential crisis isn't a problem, it's the proper reaction to discovering that you're living a lie. It's not going to feel good at first. It's like discovering that Santa Claus isn't real. It rains on the ego's parade.

[BjarkeT]

So your life isn't wasted and you get what you want out of it  

[B Clear]

31 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

How can you know that you die, if you don't know what you are?

Careful about putting the cart before the horse. The fact is, you don't know what death is.

The other problem you're stuck on is that you're still looking for a point, a purpose, a meaning to existence.

There isn't any. Nothing makes any difference. The notion of "difference" is itself an illusion. Everything is ONE. There can be no differences.

There is absolutely no difference between enlightenment and non-enlightenment. That's enlightenment! The ego is not going to get anything out of enlightenment. Enlightenment is not some grand purpose, it is the realization that nothing exists and everything is pointless.

Yes, of course you will face an existential crises. Because all beliefs are a lie, and you do not exist. Existential crisis isn't a problem, it's the proper reaction to discovering that you're living a lie. It's not going to feel good at first. It's like discovering that Santa Claus isn't real. It rains on the ego's parade.

So from what all of you said...
It seems to me the only point of self actualization and enlightenment, is to have a good time whilst alive...?
hmm.. I guess I could see value in that...

 

[Joyboy]

There is no point after all, why you must find one? 

Stop guessing and live your life whatever you please while you can. And people who enlightened having a big picture in their mind gonna get great advantages  

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, B Clear said:

So from what all of you said...
It seems to me the only point of self actualization and enlightenment, is to have a good time whilst alive...?
hmm.. I guess I could see value in that...

No!

There is no point. And no value to anything.

Your ego is still looking for a point. Hoping to salvage this. It cannot fathom what it would be like to live otherwise. That's why a leap of faith is required here. You are surrendering everything for nothing. Do not try to do a cost-benefit analysis on that.

[B Clear]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

No!

There is no point. And no value to anything.

Your ego is still looking for a point. Hoping to salvage this. It cannot fathom what it would be like to live otherwise. That's why a leap of faith is required here. You are surrendering everything for nothing. Do not try to do a cost-benefit analysis on that.

Shit ok I need to go meditate... It is still hard for me to understand how there can be no reason for the work, the work to surrender, the work to be authentic, the work to notice and eliminate addiction and distraction.
My reason used to be a deep yearning for union with the Divine... that 'Something Greater' and more loving that me... now I am questioning whether a divine even exists, the way I felt it did...?

So all I can come up with now as my "reason" or my "aim" is to just experience who I am in the moment, as fully and without filter as I can.
I did that after our initial forum chat.
I went to go lay on my bed and just felt myself perceiving myself interacting with the environment the everything that was in the environment and all environments beyond,
it felt activating, almost arousing but not in the usual way that leads to intimacy with a person. Just waves of energy moving up, and then I fell asleep.
That is all.
But then I went to my interview - for a volunteer position - and had the most beautiful expansive interaction with the interviewer (which is not common for me as I have been socially distant from others for while feeling unseen and different to them), the same thing happened with the man selling me the lottery ticket on the way home, and everything just felt pretty.. amazing..
it's settling a bit now but I still feel happier than I have in ages.
I wonder if that's the "point", but yes I hear you there is no point, but I still need to embody that

So for me, right now, I think it has to still be 'about something' and that something for me now, is just to experience the moment and my self and my being interacting with it...

Thank you for the responses, I feel a shift has happened and it continuing to happen..

~Bianca

[SOUL]

To enjoy the trip, don't let the mumbo jumbo of self appointed and anointed gurus and wannabes distract from the simplicity of it.

[Leo Gura]

@B Clear The mind gets stuck on this whole game of looking for "reasons". Don't forget that reasons are the mind's BS apparatus. You can't trust any "reasons" for anything. Reality doesn't depend on reasons for its functioning. Reasons are secondary, not primary. It's an activity of the monkey mind to justify itself to itself.

If all reason were wiped out tomorrow, reality would continue to run as it has for billions of years.

Human beings are the only creatures which seek reasons for existing. No other creature needs them. And they survive just fine. Look at the lions on safari. They are just happy basking in the sun. They don't need reasons.

[RichardY]

"If We Just Die, Why Actualize?" Because we ask the question, unfinished business. Few thoughts, not fully formed or structured. 

 

Thomas Crown Affair

The Windmills of our mind 

Round
Like a circle in a spiral
Like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning
On an ever-spinning reel
Like a snowball down a mountain
Or a carnival balloon
Like a carousel that's turning
Running rings around the moon
Like a clock whose hands are sweeping
Past the minutes of its face
And the world is like an apple
Whirling silently in space
Like the circles that you find
In the windmills of your mind

Catharsis (Pure, Purge)

Was thinking of reason being used ex post facto. "And" the word Catharsis came up. Not sure where I picked up the association, but thought of Catharsis turning back on itself( a bit like a Catherine Wheel, a firework that spins), maybe like some annihilation of reason.  

Interestingly the word Catharsis is associated with Aristotle and some play Oedipus Rex(King).

Kafir (unpure/unbeliever/to cover). Interestingly there is a place called Kafiristan in Afghanistan was apparently some sun worshipping religion. Anyway, just interested in how things tie in, maybe any associations are purely coincidental.

Cathar, guess a kind of trope from movies such as the Ninth Gate and Da Vinci code. Interesting to see how various ideas play out. "Kill them all let God sort them out." - Albigensian Crusade

 

Shake your balls? The whole head shaking thing at the end reminded me of the movie Jacobs Ladder.

 

 

[B Clear]

2 hours ago, RichardY said:

"If We Just Die, Why Actualize?" Because we ask the question, unfinished business. Few thoughts, not fully formed or structured. 

 

 

Thomas Crown Affair

The Windmills of our mind 

Round
Like a circle in a spiral
Like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning
On an ever-spinning reel
Like a snowball down a mountain
Or a carnival balloon
Like a carousel that's turning
Running rings around the moon
Like a clock whose hands are sweeping
Past the minutes of its face
And the world is like an apple
Whirling silently in space
Like the circles that you find
In the windmills of your mind

Catharsis (Pure, Purge)

Was thinking of reason being used ex post facto. "And" the word Catharsis came up. Not sure where I picked up the association, but thought of Catharsis turning back on itself( a bit like a Catherine Wheel, a firework that spins), maybe like some annihilation of reason.  

Interestingly the word Catharsis is associated with Aristotle and some play Oedipus Rex(King).

Kafir (unpure/unbeliever/to cover). Interestingly there is a place called Kafiristan in Afghanistan was apparently some sun worshipping religion. Anyway, just interested in how things tie in, maybe any associations are purely coincidental.

Cathar, guess a kind of trope from movies such as the Ninth Gate and Da Vinci code. Interesting to see how various ideas play out. "Kill them all let God sort them out." - Albigensian Crusade

 

 

Shake your balls? The whole head shaking thing at the end reminded me of the movie Jacobs Ladder.

 

 

Ps I LOVE Nina Simone!
And thanks for the creative response, its how my mind thinks so I appreciate


Actually thank you everyone , I appreciate everyone's responses <3

[Arkandeus]

What is dying? it is beyond a theory, none of us know.

What is enlightenment? it is beyond a theory as well. what does it mean to be enlightened? concepts don't mean anything, they cannot define an experience.
 

I would say that the question itself makes no sense. more precisely, the ego makes no sense, and it is obvious in its questions.
Recognize that the question is void to begin with.

 

I can only speak from my personal point of view.
what does it mean to incarnate?
what does it mean to drink water? as I enlighten more, everything is replaced.
not a single thing of my life is the same as it was before,nor does it mean the same.
being angry now doesn't mean the same as what being angry meant to me one month ago, and that is different from the month before that.
the same with a river, the same with people, the same with light, the same with language, they don't feel the same nor do they mean the same.

enlightenment is a change is the very core essence of life itself. everything is affected, whether it's bird chirping or the rain or a building.
not a single thing holds the same meaning as it did before.

and time and time again as I enlighten, the meaning of everything changes, the meaning of life itself, the meaning of death, the meaning of enlightenment, there's not a single thing that can be held onto.
it's an endless ride and I can say that everything you know about life, every meaning is merely is related to your current spiritual vibration.

every single thing you know is absolutely related to this moment right now and nothing more. there's nothing that reaches further then this moment in life. anything beyond that is a complete mystery
you cannot calculate life, that is an illusion

 

if you pay attention, you can recognize that your mind is asking questions that do not make any sense.
it is what the ego does, see the insanity in the 'sanity'.

to enlighten is to awake to your god self, to the universe itself.
we're talking about the entirety of everything that exists, the countless galaxies and dimensions, the endless life, it is all you, and you get into connection with all of that.
what is there that the mind can possibly calculate? it does not know a single thing about this connection or about what this means.
even your wildest imaginations are only relevant to your current vibration.
this is stuff beyond imagination, beyond anything you could ever dream of and that is what makes enlightenment so amazingly fun.
we're talking about power,love and life so vast...what questions are there are to ask?
you can only experience this.
as you enlighten, nothing you know right now, will be relevant, life will not be a single ounce of what it was before.
 

 

Edited September 14, 2017 by Arkandeus

[Joseph Maynor]

@SOUL Welcome back!  The voice of reason has returned.  I was having to carry that mantle while you were away haha -- like a small voice in the wilderness. 

Yes, to enjoy the trip.  Damn straight.  Being does not tell us how to live.  Being is mute.  Experience the whole kaleidoscope of life, even if half of it is a damn illusion.   It's-all-worth-experiencing -- just don't cling to it in the wrong way.  Don't expect something illusory to come at the end of the rainbow.  But eat up the illusion consciously all you want.  But know how to let it go, and know how to not get too attached.  Sitting around being a monk is a cheapened life in my opinion -- a childish life, a lazy life.  That's the irony.  Let practice bust you out of a bad case of theory.  You get out there are live a BIG LIFE!  I'm starting to believe that this Monk stuff is just laziness and the comfort-mentality rearing up in a different set of clothes.  

Even if life is an illusion, it is still damn interesting -- to think this or something else is to cling to "erroneous" beliefs about it -- to be a dogmatist basically.  Is that smart?  Duddn't seem smart to me.  Don't turn Enlightenment into a moral code.  That's a huge trap right there.  We all want to cling to moral judgments, don't we?  It feeds our hunger to be right, to be honorable, to be one of the good Egos.  

We so easily become dogmatists -- enlightened people too.  Monks are dogmatists too.  Our need to know and need to believe are so strong -- even those who claim they are beyond these are right in the grip of them.  Sometimes you have to see yourself from an outsider's perspective which is really hard.  That's the benefit of feedback.  The problem is that we ignore feedback to preserve our paradigms.  I haven't see one person who is immune to this trap yet -- so this should be really eye-opening.  We are half-blind to our own dogmatism.  That's a really bad Egoic trap, maybe the worst one.  Enlightenment doesn't tell you anything about how you OUGHT to live: That would be a thought, a belief -- and all thought-stories are illusory.

Videos on point to watch:

 

Edited September 15, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[B Clear]

2 hours ago, Arkandeus said:

What is dying? it is beyond a theory, none of us know.

What is enlightenment? it is beyond a theory as well. what does it mean to be enlightened? concepts don't mean anything, they cannot define an experience.
 

I would say that the question itself makes no sense. more precisely, the ego makes no sense, and it is obvious in its questions.
Recognize that the question is void to begin with.

 

I can only speak from my personal point of view.
what does it mean to incarnate?
what does it mean to drink water? as I enlighten more, everything is replaced.
not a single thing of my life is the same as it was before,nor does it mean the same.
being angry now doesn't mean the same as what being angry meant to me one month ago, and that is different from the month before that.
the same with a river, the same with people, the same with light, the same with language, they don't feel the same nor do they mean the same.

enlightenment is a change is the very core essence of life itself. everything is affected, whether it's bird chirping or the rain or a building.
not a single thing holds the same meaning as it did before.

and time and time again as I enlighten, the meaning of everything changes, the meaning of life itself, the meaning of death, the meaning of enlightenment, there's not a single thing that can be held onto.
it's an endless ride and I can say that everything you know about life, every meaning is merely is related to your current spiritual vibration.

every single thing you know is absolutely related to this moment right now and nothing more. there's nothing that reaches further then this moment in life. anything beyond that is a complete mystery
you cannot calculate life, that is an illusion

 

if you pay attention, you can recognize that your mind is asking questions that do not make any sense.
it is what the ego does, see the insanity in the 'sanity'.

to enlighten is to awake to your god self, to the universe itself.
we're talking about the entirety of everything that exists, the countless galaxies and dimensions, the endless life, it is all you, and you get into connection with all of that.
what is there that the mind can possibly calculate? it does not know a single thing about this connection or about what this means.
even your wildest imaginations are only relevant to your current vibration.
this is stuff beyond imagination, beyond anything you could ever dream of and that is what makes enlightenment so amazingly fun.
we're talking about power,love and life so vast...what questions are there are to ask?
you can only experience this.
as you enlighten, nothing you know right now, will be relevant, life will not be a single ounce of what it was before.
 

 

@Arkandeus thank you for this response. It really resonates with me, and is quite eye/mind/heart/being opening

Edited September 15, 2017 by B Clear
spelling

[sgn]

Because until you die you are alive.
So why not aim for feeling as much alive as possible?

[Joseph Maynor]

(1) You can be a resistor in life or a super-conductor.   Being a resistor means that all the neuroses and suffering of life burns through you -- your life includes a lot of optional suffering.  Being a super-conductor lets you bypass this suffering.  To be the super-conductor, you need Enlightenment work, even if just in the form of a daily meditation practice, that will help you although not completely.  To get the best fix, you gotta do Enlightenment work.  

(2) You get to know the truth of what you are and what the world is, and what death is and is not.  You'll get the maturest possible view of life and of yourself and of the world and of death and the afterlife.  But this requires deep Enlightenment work and the shifts that result from that work.

(3) You'll have a better idea how to spend your time in life.  If you don't know what you are or what the world is, how can you really know what to do here?  You can't, and that causes a lot of chasing and a lot of suffering.  People don't know what the hell to do here, so they just wing it.  But good living is counter-intuitive because Ego is an illusion.  So, if you wanna live a good life, you gotta know a few things first about Enlightenment.  

Edited September 19, 2017 by Joseph Maynor