Why Are Most Things I Enjoy Considered Sin

[Dodo]

Yeah, I had this question recently and I really am baffled. I've even seen the belief floating around that life itself is a sin. Meaning that it's something bad and turns out we are the devil itself... I mean could be.. Can anyone with more understanding and experience please shed light on this? Why are most things I like to do considered sins (therefore I tend to beat myself up / feel bad about myself when I do them -as if I am not doing what is spiritually correct)  ?

[Telepresent]

Sin can only exist in context.  It's a very broad word and for everyone it means something different.  So for some it is based on a religious doctrine.  For others it might just mean 'bad' - perhaps bad for society, or bad for your ability to place yourself 'well' in society, or bad for your health, or bad for [fill in the blank].  Of course, 'bad' is also context-dependent: bad compared to what?  Bad is one end of a spectrum of possible action/outcome, and we label one end better and the other worse depending on the context we are living by.  So something may be sinful (bad) because it means we're going against what someone says god says.  Or something may be sinful (bad) because it means we're not contributing to a peaceful society.  Or whatever.  But note that both of these require a judgement as to what is right and wrong, good or bad: that obeying what someone says god says is right.  That society being peaceful is right, and that you should contribute to it.

Often many of the things we enjoy don't contribute to the things we societally and/or personally have determined are good or right.  Therefore the things we enjoy must be considered bad, wrong, sinful.  But it's only actually a perspective.  Same goes for the larger questions you're asking.  Rather than worry about the 'sin' itself, use it as a chance to examine your perspective, your assumptions, your beliefs about why such and such is a sin.  What is the context that sin rests upon?

For bonus points, look into the assumption that something can be 'spiritually correct'.  Where has that come from? 

Edited September 7, 2017 by Telepresent

[Dodo]

16 minutes ago, Telepresent said:

Sin can only exist in context.  It's a very broad word and for everyone it means something different.  So for some it is based on a religious doctrine.  For others it might just mean 'bad' - perhaps bad for society, or bad for your ability to place yourself 'well' in society, or bad for your health, or bad for [fill in the blank].  Of course, 'bad' is also context-dependent: bad compared to what?  Bad is one end of a spectrum, and we label one end better and the other worse depending on the context we are living by.  So something may be sinful (bad) because it means we're going against what someone says god says.  Or something may be sinful (bad) because it means we're not contributing to a peaceful society.  But note that both of these require a judgement as to what is right and wrong, good or bad: that obeying what someone says god says is right.  That society being peaceful is right, and that you should contribute to it.

Often many of the things we enjoy don't contribute to the things we societally and/or personally have determined are good or right.  Therefore the things we enjoy must be considered bad, wrong, sinful.  But it's only actually a perspective.  Same goes for the larger questions you're asking.  Rather than worry about the 'sin' itself, use it as a chance to examine your perspective, your assumptions, your beliefs about why such and such is a sin.

For bonus points, look into the assumption that something can be 'spiritually correct'.  Where has that come from? 

Yeah, but I've had this realization before only to be stomped by the concept of "spiritual bypassing". So turns out there is a correct and wrong way to do this spirituality thing. Therefore the belief that there is a spiritually correct things and spiritually wrong things to do. 

Like I have the strong belief that murdering, raping or hurting others in a very painful and unnecessary way is spiritually wrong. I believe that lying is spiritually wrong (I do it sometimes for sure) etc etc (basically anything that I wouldn't want to experience myself I consider as evil/sinful).

Of course those are labels, but I feel like those labels are helping us not to inflict more suffering out in the world, which I consider spiritually correct. I don't know, it feels like there are good and evil acts and the good ones are spiritual, while the evil ones are considered spiritual bypassing if someone is doing them in the name of non-duality. Weird huh? 

Edited September 7, 2017 by Dodo

[Telepresent]

5 minutes ago, Dodo said:

So turns out there is a correct and wrong way to do this spirituality thing.

Depending on what you're doing, why, and what the intended outcome is

Sorry, I'm sure you know that already, I'm just playing devil's advocate.  So, depending on what you want to do, we can dig a little further.  You know these things are beliefs, but you also believe they are helpful.  Why?  Suffering.  That's your next context, perhaps.  Your next spectrum.  Basically what you're saying here is you believe suffering is wrong, and non-suffering is right.

Interestingly, I'm slamming my head against a similar but different door: I'm stopping myself from moving forwards and using "I don't want to make things difficult/weird/scary for other people" as an excuse.  I don't want to cause them suffering.

But I also know I'm fooling myself over what suffering is, over the truth of it, and I'm playing to the spectrum of suffering bad / not-suffering good.  Which is false.  People might call that spiritual bypassing (a term I'm not familiar with so I'm guessing as to its meaning), but I would counter that such people are looking at 'spirituality' as an extant thing, and not a context-spectrum itself

[Martin123]

@Dodo It is only a sin because you define it so :-).
Even so, it is only because you dwell on an unconscious belief of yourself to be a sinner.
So congratulations, you now found a very foundational core belief you can now release.
Admit defeat to beliefs point of view, validate it, give it many thanks for gurading you so well for so many years, and prepare for your consciousness to embark on a new journey that is free of this belief.

May you live an endlessly blissful life free of pain.
 

[Dodo]

@Telepresent I might have the wrong understanding of what spiritual bypassing is (perhaps using the term wrong), but yeah you get what I mean which is all that matters.

FYI and FMI : 

This video seems really worth watching btw!

Edited September 7, 2017 by Dodo

[Telepresent]

@Dodo Ok, cool - I can see why some may look at what I wrote at the top and shout 'Spiritual Bypassing!', but it seems like it's a question of execution.  So I could just say to myself "well it's all relative and nothing is absolute so I can behave how I want and not care about anything else GO ME!" and pretend to myself like I've got somewhere, all the while avoiding my own shit.  Sure.

But at some point if I want to progress I am going to have to honestly sit down and address the same question.  To actually get it.  And weirdly, for this, the answer may technically be the same, but my understanding of and relationship to it will be totally different.  Because I will have dealt with it honestly, not as an excuse or a mask sitting on top of fear

[Nahm]

@Dodo the root of the word sin is "to speak ill of one's self". 

[Nahm]

@Telepresent you state 'if it's all relative' then you disregarded the experiences that would come from those 'not caring' actions. It is all relative, to you. That is something to 'get', imo. 

***I'm an idiot because I'm expecting your brain to reject the suggestion of just how relative reality is to you. Sorry. 

[Telepresent]

43 minutes ago, Nahm said:

It is all relative, to you. That is something to 'get', imo. 

Oh, I absolutely agree with you.  I simply meant that it's very easy (and I know because I've done it!) to use the idea of relative experience vs. the absolute to justify all sorts of stuff in a 'not-dealing-with-it' kind of way - which will come back and bite you.  I don't intend to disregard experiences that come from 'not caring' actions, but I also know that the way we consider them, frame them, think and talk about them, need to be understood as not absolute - and then we need to work out how we deal with that honestly.  I suppose there's a risk in talking about it that it will always come across as nihilistic, which isn't my intention, but at a certain point I find words like 'good', 'bad', 'right', 'wrong', 'sin', etc., to be very obstructive to progress.

Which I'm not sure is what you were originally responding to, but it's what I read into it!  I'm afraid I'm not sure what you're saying with the last sentence - why call yourself an idiot?  Are you trying to head off what you see as my potential rejection, or are you just acknowledging that that's your expectation?

[Nahm]

@Telepresent i like to maintain a clarity on what is a thought and what is within my awareness.  for me, there is a subtle powerful relativity there.   a thought of evil becomes a thought tree, then often words, then sometimes an action.  i don't believe there is a 'thing' excluded from relativity, even a thought.   so the only return  to joy within is to return to joy within, ignoring any perceived lack of joy without, and then seeing the joy within and without.   

i am an idiot.  i also was trying to circumvent your reaction.   i also intended for u to do the opposite and then realize you were being directed to do the opposite, and then ignore your own initial reaction. 

[Telepresent]

@Nahm Hmm, very interesting - I have to sit with that for a bit!

[Dodo]

2 hours ago, Nahm said:

@Dodo the root of the word sin is "to speak ill of one's self". 

I understand now <3

[hundreth]

I think of sin as attaching to the activity as source of happiness rather than a celebration of being. By all means, get your fuck on, but don't be foolish enough to believe this will bring you lasting satisfaction. On the other hand, if you are full on life, you can express your gratitude via sex. 

At the root is desire, which when acted upon brings only more desire. This is a negative spiral long term.

[Haumea]

Quote

I've even seen the belief floating around that life itself is a sin. Meaning that it's something bad and turns out we are the devil itself.

You come across all kinds of beliefs floating around.  Not all of them are to be taken seriously. Always consider the source as well as the content.

 

Edited September 8, 2017 by Haumea

[Dodo]

On 07/09/2017 at 9:37 AM, Dodo said:

Yeah, I had this question recently and I really am baffled. I've even seen the belief floating around that life itself is a sin. Meaning that it's something bad and turns out we are the devil itself... I mean could be.. Can anyone with more understanding and experience please shed light on this? Why are most things I like to do considered sins (therefore I tend to beat myself up / feel bad about myself when I do them -as if I am not doing what is spiritually correct)  ?

After watching Leo's video, I remembered this thread and what I was thinking here, I guess I was on to a true insight.