How To Make Decisions Without Thoughts?

[Wes Thoughts]

So I have been practicing mindfulness for a couple of weeks now and I am starting to realize my thoughts for what they really are, just stories, images, emotions, feelings, ect. I have learned to un-identify with them. Which brings me to a real tough question of how should I go about making decisions if I don't identify with my thoughts? How do I know what thoughts to trust and go with? Is this where I should be using intuition? Isn't intuition sort of a thought though? Intuition feels like a thought that I just can't explain but maybe there is something to that?

[Viking]

decisions are everyday "normal" activities which you make using thoughts, no other way is possible to make them because a decision is a thought.
you should continue your life like usual, the only difference is you dont try to "disidentify" from your thoughts, but just look at them, by looking at them you disidentify automatically. be wary that there might be thoughts so "deep" that you might not notice, like "oh, I dis-identified from that thought!" but that's another thought and you identify with it, just something to be aware of.

now, dont be anxious about having to look at the thoughts, just do your daily meditation and try to get a habit of looking at the thoughts, you cant just start forcing yourself to be mindful, it comes with practice and a lot of time naturally.

what you're describing is a pretty advanced stage where you just go about your life but you're in the moment 100% of the time, in other words looking at your thoughts all the time. this is automatic with practice and you shouldnt try to do it, it will only lead to frustration. as I said, just remind yourself here and there to be in the moment if you really want that.

I think you're pretty confused about it all because in leo's vids there's no solid structure as by which to abide, it's more a bunch of information and "use it as you please" kinda setting. i recommend you to do https://www.trinfinityacademy.com/ courses because it's very nicely structured and you will have less chaos in your head.

also, you're thinking about using intuition, which cant be done manually because it's automatic, no free will.

 

[5driedgrams]

@Ilya checking out the link. I've seen you mention these courses in other posts and im glad im checking it out!  Thanks for sharing it!

[Wes Thoughts]

@Ilya Thanks for your response. I just heard a really good quote that reminded me of my problem of thoughts here. It was: "the mind is a great servant, but a terrible master". That kind of told me that I can use my thoughts as tools but I need to develop the master to use them correctly. 

I was very into the Triforce Academy for awhile but I have a really hard time agreeing with some of Bentinho's theories. In his "Intro course: lesson 5 - what is consciousness?" he explains that there was infinite infinity of nothingness and then out of wanting to know, taste and experience itself in form there was an explosion (the big bang) of bliss love, a love/presence/energy. I am paraphrasing him of course but I just have such a hard time accepting that concept. He also believes in Free Will which is something I disagree with as well. I am trying to stay open minded about everything but I am having a hard time getting past his theory of nothingness wanting to know itself. I really want to work through this though because as you said it looks like a wonderfully well laid out course. Do you have any thoughts on his explanation of consciousness?

[Heart of Space]

You just let your body do it.  

If you can't allow your body to do what it wants, then you just have too much mind chatter and you'll have to practice a lot more to quiet it.  

[phoenix666]

I stumbled upon this video just today and now after reading your comment it came bouncing back into my mind (friend)  

 

[Wes Thoughts]

@phoenix666 Thanks for sharing that video. I really needed to see that right now. I was starting to doubt and resent all of my thoughts when I really just need to be aware of them and direct them better.

[Azrael]

44 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

If you can't allow your body to do what it wants, then you just have too much mind chatter and you'll have to practice a lot more to quiet it.  

Very true.

If you ever experience a state of no-thought that is effortless and is kept up for a longer period of time, you'll discover that decisions pop up like hiccups and that no thoughts are required. What you experience right now is that you have a decision come up like "I will go to the toilet to take a dump" and while this is arising there is also a thought arising that says exactly that. Through that you are tricked to believe that a decision comes from a thought (that you freely think). That's an illusion.

Decisions come up by themselves, thoughts do so as well. One might influence the other but is not depended on the other. That being said, there are of course scenarios in our complicated conceptual world that need intellectual ground work to have what we might call good decisions.

For example you could have the decision come up that you'll give away all your money to charity. But because this is a risky move for your self-survival before that decision would ever come up there would come up a lot of thoughts that think about that (for a normal person). The same is with decisions that need intellectual information because the decision itself is intellectual. Let's say, you wanna go on vacation. Normally a bunch of thoughts will arise that trigger little decisions like "go research that", "go think about that", ... until in the end there will be a decision like every other one that'll just pop up and make you do the "right" thing. It is just that your unconscious mind needed more information and so it triggered thoughts and little helper decisions to make the big one.

It is surprising however - when you find it out for yourself - that most of the decisions you make throughout your day need no to very little thought. Every word I have written until this point in this post did not take one thought. It just came by itself. Although you might think this is a very intellectual manner. Well, the unconscious knows pretty well what it does, I guess.

So, how do you train yourself to make decisions w/o thoughts. Because it takes training. Meditation is the big one of course. Without meditation you'll probably not be able to stop thoughts in the first place. Secondly, you need to learn to trust your intuition by letting it decide. This takes time and you'll fuck up a few things up on the way because your intution right now is probably pretty confused and sceptically viewed by your mind. I can tell you however that if you begin to trust in your intuition and train it, it'll make your life much more effortless and beautiful. Because your intuition even knows when to ask the conscious mind to think about something. It's just that the relationship to the intuition must be learned. To start with that ask yourself something you need to decide (with your internal voice) and wait if something comes up by itself and if what. Then act on that. Start with little non-risky things and then see how it develops. There's much more to it but you will figure it out along the way.

If you once experience the genius of your intuition and you are fully able to act from that all of the time, you'll never want to go back where you were before.

Cheers, Az

[Timotheus]

@Azrael nice! thanks!

[Viking]

@Wes Thoughts notice what he says in that lesson, that you might not understand. That is good! dont hold anything as belief until you experience it yourself, you dont have to agree, some stuff was just thrown in there in the introduction course that would just plant a seed and that's all.

[Wes Thoughts]

@Azrael Thanks for the insight! I hope I do get to a point where I can trust my intuition. I don't know if I can trust it right now to make big decisions. I feel like I am making big changes by just doing this work and I don't want to do something I will regret. The big decision I am struggling with is leaving my job. It really is a great job on paper. I make a decent salary and I literally don't have to do a damn thing all day but I feel like it is sucking my soul out though because there is no passion there. So i spend most of my time at work learning about self improvement, enlightenment and ultimately trying to decide a path that will make me happy. I don't know my life purpose or passion or if this path to enlightenment will ever happen or is even worth the pursuit. I have lead a life of drinking, partying, chasing girls and money up to now and so it is hard for me to see how a life of sitting down and meditating over those things will bring me true happiness. Sometime I wonder if the extreme ups and downs of life aren't what it's all about anyway. I don't know I am kind of rambling now.

[Viking]

@Wes Thoughts When I took LSA not long ago (first psychedelic i ever did) I felt my consciousness rising, meaning i notice every thought that comes into my mind and its really easy to listen to your "hidden" thoughts. I felt like a fucking genius, ideas were popping into my head so effortlessly I didnt have to do anything, thats intuition. I think it comes automatically with meditation, since it naturally raises your consciousness in other words you're on a natural psychedelic.

[Nahm]

@Wes Thoughts I was initially shocked to find that the same day goes on with or without thinking. Give it a try. 

[Wes Thoughts]

@Ilya LSA? is that like LSD? I took LSD last weekend but it was only half of a hit and it was in a social setting so I really didn't notice the effect on my consciousness. I did notice a calming feeling where I felt very connected with the world and vivid colors though and that was very pleasant. I plan on getting some more and taking it by myself with the intent of self inquiry, consciousness work and meditation like Leo suggests. Hopefully that will give me some insights and I will know exactly what you mean then!

@Nahm I can believe that the same day would go on without thinking. I feel like I have moments like that all the time where I am doing stuff without even thinking about it. I am usually thinking about something totally unrelated to what I am doing though not just not thinking. I think this is our sub-concision working its magic, right? 

[Leo Gura]

@Wes Thoughts You're making a problem where none exists.

When you want to eat, you just go eat.

When you want to start a business, you just go start a business.

When you want to get married, you go get married.

You can think about all these things till you're face is blue, but in the end, your desire ends up making the decision for you. Notice that you actually have no awareness of how your decisions get made. In fact, you do not know how they get made. You just like to believe that you do because it sounds nice.

P.S. If you don't believe in free will, as you claim, then how can making decisions be a problem for you? No free will entails that you've got no control over anything, including your thoughts and decisions.

Notice how believing in no free will is pointless for you because it's just intellectual masturbation. In fact, you act as though you believe in free will. Which is why you posted this question in the first place. Notice that believing is one thing, being is another thing.

Now would be a good time to start questioning and dropping all your cherished beliefs. Admitting you don't know is far preferable to believing.

[Wes Thoughts]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You're making a problem where none exists.

When you want to eat, you just do eat.

When you want to start a business, you just go start a business.

When you want to get married, you go get married.

You can think about all these things, but in the end, your desire ends up making the decision for you.

@Leo Gura Are you implying that thoughts are not even necessary for decisions? Even large ones with many things that should be considered?

I see my hypocrisy in my belief in no free will. I realize that I have no direct experience of this myself so I don't even know why it is a belief of mine really. 

I have learned from your enlightenment videos that you can't trust anything but direct experience in the now, but that doesn't leave much left for me to believe in really. Which leaves me questioning everything even my thoughts and decisions. 

[Haloman]

From my understanding to narrow the terminology is:
Awareness+your body = uncunscious mind=intuition (for example animals are unconscious and their unconscious or intuition „says” when to eat or when fly to the south)
Awareness+thougts=conscious mind (only cappable for people)
And because unconscious mind is much bigger than conscious, we need to develop faculty to be more conscious or raise our consciousness (through meditation or other means), so to purge our unconscious mind and be in tune with it and let it guide us through intuition. Other now our unconscious is full of shit because of our upbringing and society.

[Leo Gura]

@Wes Thoughts Sit down and contemplate what a decision actually is, in your direct experience. Drop all ideas you have about decisions, and actually observe a decision as it occurs in real time for you. It doesn't have to be a big decision like getting married. You make dozens of little decision each day from the moment you wake up. You decide when to eat, what to eat, when to crap, when to scratch an itch on your face, when to stop reading a book, what to do next, what to say, what to buy, how much to buy, etc. Become mindful of how these choices actually happen. Be careful not to project your beliefs and ideas on the raw experience. Be honest and objective.

The funny thing is, you make all these decisions every day. Dozens and dozens of them. And you haven't ever even thought about it until now. Yet you're worried, "But how will I make decisions without thinking?!" Lol

[Aware]

How To Make Decisions Without Thoughts?

 

You are the one deciding already without a thought. Its only a clouded day to you, thats all.

See decision in making no desision and see in no decision making a decision.

See?

 

Ahayah Ashar Ahayah,

Chant and be free!

Edited August 31, 2017 by Aware

[AleksM]

@Wes Thoughts

Thoughts = mental sounds = monkey mind

Decisions happen even if no mental sounds are present but when you're identified with thoughts you somehow think that's needed for making a decision and so you get lost in unnecessary monkey mind.  

The best decisions are made with intuition and when you use intuition there are not as many mental sounds present. Intuition is like a flesh of insight and not a story line of mental sounds, it's quick, you just know what to do and it's not neccesarry to prove the point of intuition with mental sounds. That's how you make quality decisions with no thoughts.

The purity of intuition is also important. You can have low purity intuitions that are mixed with thoughts, emotions, fears and wishes and those are only partly correct and a lot of times completely wrong. So... don't assume intuition is perfect.

Learn to discern between high quality intuition and low quality intuition.

https://www.takingcharge.csh.umn.edu/explore-healing-practices/intuition-healthcare/-intuition-always-right 

Don't even try to explain your intuition, that's a trap and it Will backfire.  When you try to explain, you basicly don't trust your intuition.

However sometimes it's necessary to be sceptical which is a paradox. Why? Because intuition and fear are easily confused. You can have no thoughts at all and still act out of fear. Learn to tell the difference between fear and intuition.

Read the following article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rosalie-puiman/your-gut-feeling-fear-or-_b_6667194.html  You can find a lot more by searching on Google: fear or intuition

Also sometimes intuition can backfire, intuition is not always good.

Quote

before you decide to trust your gut, ask yourself: Am I an expert? Is this an unstructured problem? And how much time do I have to choose?

Read the following article: https://hbr.org/2015/04/when-its-safe-to-rely-on-intuition-and-when-its-not 

So basing your whole life on intuition is bullshit in my opinion. Intuition is a shortcut, you use it when too much information is present and you can't assebly this information fast enough or when the problem is unstructured and when you already know something about something.

A man that never heard about higher spiritual truths Will never receive intuitions about higher spiritual truths. A man that is addicted to drugs Will have intuitions about where to find drugs. Intuition can be used to kill someone.

So use intuition wisely and be warry about the dangers of it. You don't want to get in trouble because of your intuition.

Intuition is a part of the mind...so... intuition is not always right!

Here is a book  that talks about the deceptions and dangers of intuition(have not read it yet). http://www.theinvisiblegorilla.com/overview.html

When you are on the spiritual path you Will go trough a period with no thoughts and you Will rely a lot on intuition, but this too shall pass, and you Will find that always following your intuition can be destructive.