Matter Can Only Be Something In A Finite Universe.

[Erlend K]

About mathematics: It is "Objective Truth" in the only way symbolic representations can ever be objective: "Snow is white if, and only if, it is white". If you define a=b, then in some way you can argue that it is objectively true that "a is the same as b". All of mathematics is based on a set of unprovable premises/definitions. There exists no proof that 1+1=2.

We then apply the laws of logic to derive conclutions from these premises. These laws of logic are also unprovable. They are just an attempt at articulating some of the rules the human mind is evolved to apply intuitively for labeling information as true or false, and combine existing information to derive new concutions.

The only reason to take math and logic seriously is that, for some mysterious reason, it actually works at describing and making useful predictions in the world. 

[Dodo]

39 minutes ago, Erlend K said:

The question "what is outside the our universe?"  is an absurd question. The word "outside" describes a point in space, and as far as we know, space only exists as part of the spacetime contiuum of the universe.

It's just like the question "what was before the big bang?". The word "before" also means a point in the timespace contiuum. Time, like space,  is a part of the physical fabric of this universe, and came into existance with the Big Bang. At the moment of the Big Bang there was no sutch thing as time, and therefor there was nothing "before" the Big Bang. There might have been something else in the world. Just like the world might still contain something else than the universe. Something fundamentally different from "before" or "outside". Something the human mind is not evolved to be able to intuit.

There is nothing outside!  It's not an absurd question,  it's only absurd if the answer is something,  because that then will be included in the definition of our universe and will no longer be outside it. 

Is the room the walls or is it also the empty space within it? And no, you cannot see empty space or observe it. You can only notice it in relation to objects, but that doesnt stop you from being aware of it's eternal being. It's the alpha and the omega. No less than God.

So, if you are aware that there is nothing outside, you are aware that there is infinite space and then I include that space in the definition of the Universe.

So I know it to be infinite,  because I include nothingness as well as the illusory forms as part of the Universe. In fact nothingness is more real than any appearance, but thats another story.. So it's weird not to include the only thing real in the definition of Universe.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Dodo

[Dodo]

 @Erlend K

You cannot observe nothingness. But you can be aware of it.

Imagine the following O is the universe expanding. The only thing you need to do is zoom out faster, remember this is a thought experiment, you dont need to travel faster than light- this is only a way to become aware of the eternal nature of nothingness or emptiness.

Obviously it cannot be done in reality apart from in a thought experiment, because if something is outside the universe taking this snapshot will automatically be part of the Universe and the universe will expand to it. Will circle him and then again there is the unobserved nothingness beyond. 

The entire page is the emptiness around it. So we suppose the universe is finite and ever increasing,  then we can represent it with the O no problem. You are somewhere in the limited O we currently call our finite ever increasing universe of stuff(spacetime contiuum included, which is silly cause space and time don't exist apart from thought but whatever, we're supposing here that there is a world outside us in the first place lol). 

                        

                           O 

 

So in this you can actually see that there is infinite nothingness beyond. It's too simple. If there wasn't infinite nothingness,  there would be something and then that would also be part of the O and not the rest of the picture. But there are no bounds for the O. If there is a bound, it would be part of the O and not the nothingness outside. Which is eternal.

You can be aware of it's eternal nature. You cannot verify it's existence because it's very quality is that it doesn't exist. It doesn't have qualities. 

But it is. Nothing can be without the space in which it appears. 

Reminds me of self enquiry.

 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2017 by Dodo

[Erlend K]

10 minutes ago, Dodo said:

There is nothing outside!  It's not an absurd question,  it's only absurd if the answer is something,  because that then will be included in the definition of our universe and will no longer be outside it. 

Is the room the walls or is it also the empty space within it? And no, you cannot see empty space or observe it. You can only notice it in relation to objects, but that doesnt stop you from being aware of it's eternal being. It's the alpha and the omega. No less than God.

I dont see why you assume space to be an eternal being. Our best estimate is that it came into existence 13,8 billion yeas ago, and it may verry well dissipate at some point in the future. 

[Dodo]

6 minutes ago, Erlend K said:

I dont see why you assume space to be an eternal being. Our best estimate is that it came into existence 13,8 billion yeas ago, and it may verry well dissipate at some point in the future. 

The space that is created is no the space I am talking about. This space you are talking about is an object in the space which I'm talking about. There is no space... Space doesn't exist... It's not created. Stuff in it are apparently created, but space is not.

It's the absence of things, how can you kill it? The absence of it is itself... How can emptiness dissipate, it's strange. It is already the case that it is dissipated.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Dodo

[Erlend K]

@DodoSo when you use the word "Space" you are not referring to the space-time continuum, but rather something unfathomable that you hypothesize exists beyond the space-time continuum? Something that's not a three-dimensional extent, but something non-geometric, with no physical properties. Something we have no way of verifying or falsifying the existence of?

 

[Dodo]

1 hour ago, Erlend K said:

@DodoSo when you use the word "Space" you are not referring to the space-time continuum, but rather something unfathomable that you hypothesize exists beyond the space-time continuum? Something that's not a three-dimensional extent, but something non-geometric, with no physical properties. Something we have no way of verifying or falsifying the existence of?

 

5 hours ago, Erlend K said:

You can verify it as yourself in this very moment experience, if you're not so glued/attached with your attention to the experience itself. 

Sorry I wrote this in this quote but im on my phone and quotes cant be deleted and I couldn't move the cursor outside of it hahaa

Edited August 31, 2017 by Dodo

[hundreth]

15 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Not at all. Aliens would not have mathematics.

Math is based on very many beliefs. It's a human invention.

Math is just one of an infinite number of ways of symbolizing reality.

It seems in your campaign against rationality, you've successfully excised it from yourself. Nice work, or something.

Sure, our world is a hallucination, a dream, groundless. That said, there are parameters to how our dream works, and we can observe them. Why are these parameters there? For fun? At random? A work of intelligent brilliance? One expression of the infinite? I don't know, what we do know is they are there. This isn't a human invention.

If Aliens are indeed sharing this dream with the same parameters, and if they reached sufficient levels of intelligence, they would no doubt go through a similar process. 

Math is the purest language we have to describe the parameters of our dream. Sure, this is limited in scope, so I'm skeptical of how much practical use there is in using it to discover truths about the Absolute. On the other hand, you are a product of those same limitations, and if you believe you can turn inward to discover truth, it's all around us just the same.

Math is nothing but a projection / mapping of reality, but SO ARE YOU.

Edited August 31, 2017 by hundreth