Determinism/no-free-will And Meditation/enlightenment

[Flix]

TL;DR: Who else feels that figuring out the free will illusion helps a lot on the path of enlightenment and in life in general?

(Please no "(no) free will" discussion here, there are other threads. For those doubting no-free-will I recommend "Free Will" by Sam Harris.)

I have understood that there is no free will. That due to physical nature laws, everything is determined, right up to the tiniest movements of the tiniest particles. Cause and effect. (Some quantum physicists claim that true randomness on subatomic particles exists. But that wouldn't allow for free will either. So I stick to the belief that life in this universe is entirely determined.)

I have internalised this to a degree that I really can feel it big part of the time. I see it in the actions and behaviours of the people around me, and I feel it inside of me when I'm doing things and when I am really mindful. I can hear myself talking, hear the words coming out of my mouth (even communicating well-conceived thoughts to others), feel my body doing something, and I totally know: This isn't me talking/doing, the body is doing it itself. I can put myself in a role of a mere observer.

This insight helps me a lot. I feel I'm becoming more compassionate and understanding with others. I beat myself up less for the things I did in the past. I have less regret. I know that I and others couldn't have done anything differently, not even slightly. I also don't feel as bad anymore about feeling some way, for I know that at this moment I can only feel as I feel. E.g. I don't feel bad about being sad or angry any more, I just feel sad or angry. Thoughts like "I have to do this or that or to succeed in this or that" are getting rarer. I have a lot less fears and worries about the future. I know it will come exactly as it has to. There's less resistance and more accepting the moment as it is, since it could not be any different.

My thoughts about the connection to enlightenment/meditation/mindfulness:

Without free will, everything is less personal. All is objectively one. The universe is one big chain reaction, so every human is part of it. No free will means no separation. That's what I'm feeling even subjectively more and more. Doing becomes less important, it's more about being and committing to the flow of life. As Leo says in on video: "Existence doesn't need you to be any different than you currently are."

Even with the perception of no free will, stuff is happening only in the present moment. The present moment is they best and only thing there is. So it's all about awareness, feeling and enjoying everything in the moment in its full intensity. Lean back and enjoy the show. Doing something mindfully gets a new meaning: I don't do it or control it, I just observe and experience myself doing it and arising feelings with full awareness.
 
One thing I had to think a little bit about before I understood it: Enlightenment, too, happens within determinism. Some part within you (underlying the cause and effect principle) enters a more conscious state. Whether or not it does is itself determined and out of your control. The same goes for whether or not you meditate. Also, the physical elements of meditation run themselves, of course. Your breath breathes automatically (deterministically) for you, no need (or real possibility) to control it. You just observe it.

But both meditation and enlightenment do connect you with being, which seems to be in another dimension, since in the state of being there is no doing, no cause and effect, it's pure experience. Therefore determinism is simply no question. You could say by entering a meditative or enlightened state, a part of you (the being, experiencing part, not the monkey chatter part  ) exits the deterministic principle. Just that it isn't in your control whether or not or what time or how often you do meditate. You can just "hope" that you (your mind, environment, the universe etc.) are determined to become more conscious, meditate a lot and in the best case become enlightened.

After internalizing this view you can use the question "Who am I when I'm not even in control of my body and brain?" in your self-inquiry work.

I just feel that all this is a lonely path. Almost everyone seems to love the illusion of free will. It is being swept under the rug by almost everyone, even spiritual teachers. I think it's because the illusion is "good", the subjective feeling of being able to act freely is strong. Therefore I fall back myself often. Also understanding that reflecting, discussing, thinking about it is itself determined makes it harder to grasp it. And people fear giving up their "freedom". And they like to have "control" over themselves and their lives. And society is free will oriented and teaches that you have free will. In this terms almost everyone seems to be an esoteric, believing in fantasy and magic. People run down religion and homeopathy (justifiably so), but sustain the biggest delusion themselves.

So I find it hard to talk to people about it. In everyday life I feel different, like I'm on one of these silent dancing parties and every one is hearing the same music on their headphones, it's just me who is dancing to some completely different music, yet we are in the same room. And even though it makes me more understanding and forgiving in general: Sometimes I have to be attentive not to feel superior or think "you fools" when I see others acting totally unconsciously. I then have to remind myself: They cannot do otherwise.

Is there anyone else who has as deeply internalized as me and feels it helps them?
Anyone from Munich (Germany)?

Leo, if you read this, have you really internalised that everything is determined? That all people around you act exactly as they have to, every second? I know you mention no-free-will briefly in your enlightenment FAQ and have a whole episode about it, but don't you think concentrating on this in the enlightenment videos even more could help especially on the path to enlightenment? Maybe it's not even necessary for enlightenment, but I think it helps a lot to stop living in this huge illusion (I mean you don't really stop living in it, you just become fully aware of it). I could even imagine that enlightenment comes as a by-product.
Btw, just coming back from my 1st solo retreat in the mountains if Austria. It was amazing, thanks for the inspiration!

Edited August 28, 2017 by Flix

[Leo Gura]

The problem with talking about the notion of "no free will" is that people either believe you, or they don't. Either way, it's just a belief, so they go on acting exactly as before: as if they have free will.

Breaking this tendency of acting as though one is in control, is really hard. It basically requires enlightenment. The ego's whole function is to act as if it's in control. You can't think your way out of it. It requires a deep experiential surrender to life.

But yes, it's good to be mindful of it in your daily practices. Just notice you're not really in control. Your body and mind have a life of their own.

[AlwaysBeNice]

Whose there to say there's no free will.

Sure, if there's no separate person with free will.. because there's no separate person.

But you always experience making choices through intelligence/creativity, sure it's spontaneous but.. that makes it even more free.. 

..

Ah, free 'will', now that I think of it, all this discussion around it probably arises because of a lot of different definitioning on the 'will' part.

If you see it as: 'there is a separate will of your own', then you are wrong.

But I think, if you say, there's a free choice, every moment, that's certainly true, because God has infinite choice and because that's our experience.

[Dodo]

If there is an actual "random factor", then existence is not deterministic, but probabilistic. Perhaps all possibilities are already written (in absolute infinity obvs), but that doesn't mean this is predetermined. It could go any which way based on that random factor. How are we so sure there is no randomness involved? 

To clarify: You not choosing what happens, doesn't necessarily mean that what happens is predetermined. I'm talking about True randomness. Perhaps it's Godly territory this. 

[Leo Gura]

@AlwaysBeNice The issue is one of control. If you believe you're in control, that's the problem.

The practical consequence of the no free will debate is surrendering your need to control life. Most people don't realize how much of their suffering stems from trying to control and manipulate life.

[Nahm]

For what it's worth...I was a massive preacher on the pro free will side, then had an experience which I then saw easily that there is no free will - no me - at all. Now reality 'does' things when I'm alone (lol)  that are completely contradictory to the physical laws. My brain has no chance explaining these miracles, I just laugh and laugh and laugh in joy.    But I do offer this as a testimonial to the contrary that all reality is "like" one big clock. IMO, it hilariously is not. My brain says it is though. My eyes and ears have experienced otherwise. My brain is really funny in that way. 

[Jogi]

Hi there @Flix!

I am also from Munich! 

I don´t think I can say that I have internalized this as much as you have. For me it is still rather a belief. But in those moments when I think of "no-free-will" I always have to laugh and my worries become unsignificant. So in a way it helps me just to belive in it.

As you already said, there can just be the hope that one´s determined path includes all the good stuff (enlightenment, increasing awareness, etc.) 

If you´re interested in meeting up sometime, just let me know. :-)