A Question?

[MasterNigel]

3 hours ago, SFRL said:

That's funny you say that. My girlfriend is Black and I think I have some insight in this. 

You say: "Maybe Black people are genetically predisposed to commit more violence". 

The funny thing is that I have heard a lot of Black people make that same claim about White people. Their reasoning is that during colonial times it were the White people who went around killing and enslaving other people. Also I have heard Black people say that most serial killers are white, which statistically I think is truth. (......) And that it was White people who pretty much exterminated the Native Americans in North America. Just for good measure let me also remind you that is was White people (Arians) who mass exterminated the Jews in WW2. And as singled out examples by your reasoning Barack Obama should be more vicious then Donald Trump. 

Now like I said there are White people who do hold those believes regarding Black people. And there are Black people holding those same believes about White people. So one side got to be in the wrong correct? Or maybe both sides or right in their assumption, and humans as a whole are an agressive species predisposed to be violent. 

I agree. Survival of the fittest race! It seams like thats where the word race came from anyway, a race for the world!

Now we can sit back and watch comfortably knowing that energy never stops, and we are about a second on the cosmic calendar.

[SFRL]

9 minutes ago, MasterNigel said:

I agree. Survival of the fittest race! It seams like thats where the word race came from anyway, a race for the world!

Now we can sit back and watch comfortably knowing that energy never stops, and we are about a second on the cosmic calendar.

Yeah it's inevitable that in just a cosmic second we will all blend together. Globalization is going at a faster rate by the decade. Pay attention. 

[Emerald]

6 hours ago, MasterNigel said:

I will watch that movie you've suggested with an open mind. How about the idea that if people of african descent look soo much different than say europeans than the brain and character traits must be just as different. For example more fierceness as an attribute, for reasons of survival amongst fiercer predators. Perhaps those survivability traits translate to the murder rates we see today in the modern west. Just throwin that out there. Best of luck with getting to the bottom of it, Nigel

I don't think this is true. It's not because your theory is completely implausible or anything. Ancestors living in different environments, will likely have somewhat different adaptations. But I don't believe it's true because I spend a lot of time around children of various ethnic backgrounds. And they range in age from ages 3 to 18. And I don't stay in the same schools. I go to the schools in the higher income parts of town as well as in the lower income parts of town.

What you quickly notice is that students from the same schools tend to have similar predispositions toward misbehavior and violence. But you won't find a correlation when it comes to race by itself as a factor. But you'll find that schools that are lower income schools (which because they're lower income have a higher percentage of non-white students) are also rougher on the behavior scale. I know if I go to the school in the poor neighborhood, I'm going to get tested more by students of all races from about third grade onward. And they deal with very rough situations. This one little white girl on my first day of work five years ago, was telling me that her dad just got sent to prison and wouldn't get out until she's 15. One mentally challenged girl that I taught was being sold by her mother to various men. Another group of sibling's mother killed their father. One girl (white) was molested by her uncle who took her on a high speed chase and shot her.  And there are just miserable situations going on... and this causes behavior issues because there is so much pain to be coped with.

But if you go into a class with three and four year olds, there is literally no difference between kids of various races. They haven't even been socialized to attribute meaning to race yet. So, they all have the same sense of wonderment about things. The only students who tend to have real behavior issues at that point have them because they have a really traumatic home-life or they have some kind of emotional/behavioral issue.

So, my recommendations is to not spend too much time theorizing about various generalizations regarding race or any other demographic factor. It clouds the judgment when it comes to dealings with people and it lays a pretty heavy trip on black people. Spend some time around real people.

[Consept]

7 hours ago, Emerald said:

I don't think this is true. It's not because your theory is completely implausible or anything. Ancestors living in different environments, will likely have somewhat different adaptations. But I don't believe it's true because I spend a lot of time around children of various ethnic backgrounds. And they range in age from ages 3 to 18. And I don't stay in the same schools. I go to the schools in the higher income parts of town as well as in the lower income parts of town.

What you quickly notice is that students from the same schools tend to have similar predispositions toward misbehavior and violence. But you won't find a correlation when it comes to race by itself as a factor. But you'll find that schools that are lower income schools (which because they're lower income have a higher percentage of non-white students) are also rougher on the behavior scale. I know if I go to the school in the poor neighborhood, I'm going to get tested more by students of all races from about third grade onward. And they deal with very rough situations. This one little white girl on my first day of work five years ago, was telling me that her dad just got sent to prison and wouldn't get out until she's 15. One mentally challenged girl that I taught was being sold by her mother to various men. Another group of sibling's mother killed their father. One girl (white) was molested by her uncle who took her on a high speed chase and shot her.  And there are just miserable situations going on... and this causes behavior issues because there is so much pain to be coped with.

But if you go into a class with three and four year olds, there is literally no difference between kids of various races. They haven't even been socialized to attribute meaning to race yet. So, they all have the same sense of wonderment about things. The only students who tend to have real behavior issues at that point have them because they have a really traumatic home-life or they have some kind of emotional/behavioral issue.

So, my recommendations is to not spend too much time theorizing about various generalizations regarding race or any other demographic factor. It clouds the judgment when it comes to dealings with people and it lays a pretty heavy trip on black people. Spend some time around real people.

Completely agree with you, i work at a youth charity as a sessional worker, working with kids from 12 right up to early 20s and the number one factor i see for kids with behavioral issues is home life. Im pretty sure theres a direct correlation between how disruptive a young person is and how bad their home life is. If the kid has a fairly good home life you dont tend to see them having any behavioral issues. 

To say its solely based on race and genetics is to me incredible. But the thing is @MasterNigel isnt the only person that thinks this way. Like i said hopefully you take some of this on board and question your beliefs esp when confronted with so much evidence

[Emerald]

5 hours ago, Consept said:

Completely agree with you, i work at a youth charity as a sessional worker, working with kids from 12 right up to early 20s and the number one factor i see for kids with behavioral issues is home life. Im pretty sure theres a direct correlation between how disruptive a young person is and how bad their home life is. If the kid has a fairly good home life you dont tend to see them having any behavioral issues. 

To say its solely based on race and genetics is to me incredible. But the thing is @MasterNigel isnt the only person that thinks this way. Like i said hopefully you take some of this on board and question your beliefs esp when confronted with so much evidence

I've noticed a very strong correlation between home life and behavior issues. But even that sometimes isn't the case. I've had a few students dealing with really messed up things who are really well behaved and just really awesome people. But that speaks to their personal character and resilience. Most students with a bad home-life never really had a chance and develop really negative coping mechanisms that effect their behavior and their life in detrimental ways.

It also wouldn't make sense to me that human beings from different regions of the world would be that different, because race is an evolutionary factor that changes in relatively few generations, evolutionarily speaking. I remember that when I was a freshman in college and taking my gen. eds., I was required to take a biology class. And I remember the professor had us read an article about how race occurs based mostly on the level of vitamin D that a person needs and the level of sun protection a person needs. So, it was posited that white people are white because white skin is more susceptible to the sun's rays. So, during the cold winters, it would be easier for white people to get their vitamin D requirements met more easily because sunlight is where we get vitamin D. And people with darker skin color, live in places where the sun shines year-round or most of the year. So, it's easy to get the necessary vitamin D from the sun. But extra sun protection is needed, which more melanin helps with. And it was said in the article that in a particular ethnic group, through natural selection the race of that group would change over the course of about 150 generations, if that group relocated to a different location where there was more or less sunlight. And this would happen without having children with people of a different race.

It is unfortunate that people project so much onto other people. And the internet, with its anonymity, makes it really clear that there are a lot of people with distorted viewpoints about race and other demographic factors. I grew up sort of naive, believing that these mindsets were gone. But it's really yucky to see how many people are ready to jump on the philosophies of old and play devil's advocate with them. I see a lot of pseudo-intellectuals do this, where they think that they're being deep thinkers. As a woman, I experience a lot of guys who will do the same thing to women where they'll start thinking about what's "natural" and it will basically be like a big explanation as to why men are superior to women. And it's the same thing that I saw a couple people do on this thread but with black people instead of women.

So, they brought up that black people commit half of all murders (which I attribute to gang violence in bad neighborhoods and as a purely environmental phenomenon). And I read this air of "black people are more violent, therefore they are inferior to white people. Thus white dominance is justified." Sort of a saying it without directly saying it. Yet I'm sure if you brought up that men commit 90% of all murders (which is a real statistic), then using the idea of "male predisposition toward violence"  would suddenly transform this predisposition to violence into a strength and be the reason why men are more dominant and thus meant to lead society and have more power than women... because "it's natural." And all this makes me wonder, why it's so important to some people that their race or gender is the superior one. Is it just mediocrity... like "Well I don't have anything special about me and no special skills... but at least I'm white!" Or is it something else.

[MasterNigel]

For the record I do not strongly identify with the ideas im throwing out there, I think its helpful to get the extremes out of the way and be somewhat controversial so we can funnel down to the practical solutions. There is absolutely no superiority in what i said, and "sort of saying it without really saying it" doesent really mean anything. saying blacks are more fierce is a compliment judging on how they are very proud of that based on rap music and culture. Like i said I have no bad intentions, and i wish to change my whole paradigm and consciousness for the truth. ruling out possibilities I think is productive to get a solution of the the black murder rate which is nearly 8 times that of whites if you equalize the populations. It would be most productive to solve this mystery since were on the subject. So genes are ruled out, and i think poverty is not the cause since the poverty rate is not much higher than hispanic and all others in proportion to the crime rates, the hispanics and others are in just as bad of a poverty situation. I dont think racism is a cause since all other groups get arrested and convicted in proportion to their share of the population also. So what is the cause? Ive recently watched the 13th documentary and it was very eye opening on how bad it is in prison for blacks, but the difference between an african slave dungeon to rickers island prison is that rickers island held convicted prisoners and the slave dungeon was for any african. At the end a guy explains that its racism and financial gains that lead to soo many imprisoned blacks, but thats still no excuse for the hugely disproportionate crime rates. 

[SFRL]

@MasterNigel you can't find the truth if you make cartoon character representation of a situation. 

Black people being proud of rap music, that's not even accurate. I know lots of Black people who do not like rap music at all. That's a cartoon character representation of reality. 

What do you exactly consider to make up Black Culture? 

 

I think the poverty is only part of the problem. Poverty is part of a bigger problem, and that problem is lack of perspective. 

[SFRL]

Also you have to kind of ask yourself: How true is this idea of Black people being this massively problematic minority group in 2017?

There just has been a Black US president for 8 years. More and more Black people attend college. And there are Tiger Woods, Serena Williams, and Lewis Hamilton who are successful in these 'White gentleman' sports like Golf, Tennis, and Formula 1. 

That's a big turn around considering 50/60 years ago Martin Luther King got assassinated because he ran an equal rights movements and Black children were not allowed to attend the same school as White Children. 

In two or three generations we almost made a 180 degrees turn around. 

Give it another three generations and let's see what the situation is then. 

You can keep focussing on these old ideas but it's only going to slow down the progress. Progress that inevitably will be made. 

[SFRL]

 

1 hour ago, SFRL said:

 

This comedian addresses pretty much the same thing as what I mean by don't make it a cartoon character situation. The truth is much more nuanced. 

You will see this cartoon character thinking with White people, Black people, Men, Women, etc....

?

Edited September 4, 2017 by SFRL

[Consept]

7 hours ago, SFRL said:

@MasterNigel you can't find the truth if you make cartoon character representation of a situation. 

Black people being proud of rap music, that's not even accurate. I know lots of Black people who do not like rap music at all. That's a cartoon character representation of reality. 

What do you exactly consider to make up Black Culture? 

 

I think the poverty is only part of the problem. Poverty is part of a bigger problem, and that problem is lack of perspective. 

Lol Was gonna bring up the 'black people are proud based on rap music'. That statement tells me everything, heres the thing go out and actually talk to some black people, instead basing your opinions on media cartoon representations. 

Thats like me saying all white people listen to country music and are hilbillies. And you said that while backtracking on what you said previously lol. I always wonder with people of similar feelings, can you really see things from a different perspective or will you always have these ingrained beliefs? 

Edited September 5, 2017 by Consept

[MasterNigel]

good question, no. Thats the whole purpose of actualized and this forum is change ones consiousness and paradigm completely. Im just throwing my past beliefs up here, it cant hurt right? Debating subjects like this is productive we're exchanging thaughts and info.

[Emerald]

57 minutes ago, MasterNigel said:

good question, no. Thats the whole purpose of actualized and this forum is change ones consiousness and paradigm completely. Im just throwing my past beliefs up here, it cant hurt right? Debating subjects like this is productive we're exchanging thaughts and info.

I'm all for looking at all sides of beliefs for the sake of seeing what makes them tick. And this includes ones that could lead to negative outcomes for myself. For example, I've questioned why societies have been patriarchal in the past and whether it's "natural" for male dominance. And these types of questions are an actual potential threat to me and my current worldview as if they were actually true it would have major negative consequences on all aspects of my life. And some of my biggest insights have come from looking at what's threatening to me and have seen patterns of human growth that I wouldn't otherwise have seen, just in asking those scary questions and really examining things. So, looking at these types of beliefs will help you get a clearer picture.

However, when it comes to examining an unpopular old-world belief (that shares ties to eugenics) that doesn't really effect you personally, it is honestly just getting your kicks from playing devil's advocate with the ghosts of the past. And a lot of people who fancy themselves as "intellectual" are doing this, and the potential for opening up Pandora's Box is great. So, it very well CAN hurt. Not just emotionally on the individual level, but on a mass scale if there are enough people who start to play this seemingly lighthearted game of devil's advocate. An idea with enough momentum can really cause harm.

And devil's advocate games are always safe and removed from the situation and done by people who haven't truly experienced the realities of the situation. As SFRL said before, it's just looking at a cartoon image of the reality. You get to look at a situation from afar in comfy armchair and make your postulations and judgments that will never really have any effect on your life. You're not a black person having to make sense out of why the murder statistics fall the way that they do. Or actively dealing with the amount of projections that comes from people in society who see them as synonymous with violent criminals because of this statistic. So, it will be simple for you to come up with a simple answer.

If you want to really be aware, then I recommend getting to know more black people in life and witnessing firsthand that black people are just as diverse in their character and disposition as white people. Notice any tendency to want to project over the entirety of a race because you just don't have a lot of example of people you know intimately from that race. That's why minorities in a society are easier to project out onto, because in lieu of having many interactions the majority group can cleave to statistics and stereotypes to concoct a really distorted and two dimensional caricature of reality.

And if you want to be really aware of why there's a higher percentage of black people committing violent crimes, then you should get to know some black inmates who are in for violent crime. There is a program called "Prison Pen Pals" where you can anonymously correspond with people who are in prison because many of them don't have family and friends who write to them. My friend Julia did it, and she showed me some of the letters, and it was really interesting. You might be able to glean some insights from that.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Emerald

[MasterNigel]

It was unconscious of me to play devils advocate, I just wanted to understand the cause of such ridiculous crime stats. Lets leave it up to the trumpster to deal with hows that, im dropping this shit out of my mind and gonna focus on eating a surplus of food and working out again!

[pluto]

"I am myself a black man."

The correct and healthy way to think is : "I am myself a man"

We are all one human race at the end of the day

[Emerald]

6 hours ago, pluto said:

"I am myself a black man."

The correct and healthy way to think is : "I am myself a man"

We are all one human race at the end of the day

I understand the thought process but it's a bit unhelpful for really understanding the way that the world actually works and being able to understand where people are coming from. There is nothing wrong with saying "I am a black man" if you are indeed a man who is black. That's a true statement and it makes sense in the context of the post that he would draw upon his experiences as a black man. The fact of the matter is that race exists and even if we don't like that it exists and think we should completely ignore it because it makes us uncomfortable, it still effects the way a person is treated and seen. So, being of a particular race, comes along with particular projections from society and certain experiences that people of other races are not privy to. So, the "all one race" rhetoric is very sunshine and rainbows thinking that tends to comfort people who aren't actively dealing with the problems of being a particular race.

Now, I'm all for dis-identification and detachment from all labels. However, pretending that race doesn't exist just isn't helpful. And if I say "I am a white woman." That statement is simply a factual statement that gives context to others about my life. So, this let's people know that my racial experience will be that of a white woman.... so like avocados and uggs and stuff like that.

[Deep]

On 8/26/2017 at 9:49 PM, Jhonny said:

Now who has planted this in me society, parents,myself or is this something deeper??

All of the above. People of color aren't portrayed positively in academics and media. The ones who are usually have "white" features. It's sad but that's the system we live in. 

[pluto]

I'm just planting seeds

Edited September 5, 2017 by pluto