Choosing Your Meditation Retreat - Don't Make The Same Stupid Mistakes I Made

[Elisabeth]

So, excited by Leos videos, a few references I had and my own (very inconsitent) practice I decided to go to my first meditation retreat. For reasons of time and availability, it was a buddhist vipassana retreat. A couple of things went wrong and I found myself going through hell and running home on day two  (You're officially welcome to laugh at me.) Not that going through hell at times is wrong, it would be just, you know, better to be able to finish your retreat. So I just want to share some stupid mistakes of mine with you so that you can adjust your expectations and preparation.

So, don't be naive. 

• Realize that vipassana is not "do nothing". It's actual work. The retreat will hardly feel like a vacation. 
• You have addictions and weaknesses? Are you afraid that not sleeping or not eating is going to be hard? Yeah, getting up at 4 hungry and practising for three hours is just as hard as you think. 
• The hardship and the meditation do not cancel each other out. Together they amplify any doubt or internal problem you've got. And when I say amplify, I mean present you with the full extent of the demon all at once, until you cry and crumble.
• You think all meditation teachers can teach beginners well, and all Buddhists groups are kind of decent? Budhism isn't a religion so there aren't sects and individuals that haven't gone far astray from the spirit of the teaching? Think twice. And, even if you're lucky, the teacher or the philosophy may not sit with you well. Having said that, don't go uneducated, find out about the underlying philosophy too. 

Commenting a bit on the last point, I hardly have any comparison, but I think I had a bit of bad luck here. While I do understand that buddhist  practitioners can be very hardcore, the people I ran into not only had a bunch of rules and were very strict enforcing them, they imho had some twisted and arbitrary interpretations, which were downrigt harmful. I also believe, and this is hard for me to say, that the teacher was only teaching people to go through the motions and not actually the heart of the technique. There was much emphasis on form, little on the mindset needed. There was so much emphasis on suffering being necessary, that there was no room left to enjoy the practice. The only thing I could see on the faces of fellow students if I looked around was suffering. No relaxing of the mind and the muscles. I have so little experience that I nearly let myself be convinced that this is the way it should be, but frankly, I believe these people actually did the technique wrong. I think the teaching was really bad. I have yet to find out, but I think meditation should have it's ups and downs, and a retreat should not be all about the dark side.

I think me not staying at the retreat was as much a result of me reflecting on my goals and values and finding they are in sharp conflict with the teaching as presented, as it was surrendering or running away from my inner demons. But maybe I would have given up even in the most supporting setup, because I went too far too fast, and I was not ready for a retreat at all. I mean, if I have doubt, why not do a weekend first? 

Despite all the trouble I experience, after leaving I saw some of the positive effects of meditating and being on a clean(er) diet for two days. I guess it's hard to mess the practice up so badly that it doesn't do you any good. So I'm not giving up on meditation, although I'm sure as hell going to be choosing my teachers more carefully. 

Hope this helps one person at least. 

Tl ; dr  : Set your expectations straight, learn the techniques, do some practice, and also check out the teacher/group properly before you decide to do your first retreat. You might go through hell and find yourself running for the hills if you don't. (I guess it might happen even if you do.)

[Elisabeth]

Ah, and an extra tip for girls. If you really are to go to your meditation retreat unprepared like me, do it on the day before your period. You'll see the increased effects of ... everything ... pretty fast  

Edited August 22, 2017 by Elisabeth

[ajasatya]

5 hours ago, Elisabeth said:

The hardship and the meditation do not cancel each other out. Together they amplify any doubt or internal problem you've got. And when I say amplify, I mean present you with the full extent of the demon all at once, until you cry and crumble.

wonderful! you've had the chance to feel it!

can you understand now? that gross layer of latent suffering must go away. otherwise it will crawl into your thoughts, words and actions 24/7.

[Richard Alpert]

31 minutes ago, ajasatya said:

wonderful! you've had the chance to feel it!

can you understand now? that gross layer of latent suffering must go away. otherwise it will crawl into your thoughts, words and actions 24/7.

I agree with this. I have done only one vippsana retreat, but the most profound experience was really feeling the demons and suffering. That is pretty much the whole idea. there is a reason you dont talk or use electronics in retreats.

[Time Traveler]

Interesting.

I've been to two Vipassana retreats (Goenka style) and both times 2/3 of  students quit before end. I was curious why because I only talked after retreat with those who stayed till end.

As for the meditation teachers, they only answered questions, but all instructions were recorded on tape by S.N.Goenka.

Only objection from me is that they do not accept that you practice any other methods. So I will not go to their retreat again which is pity.

[vibrate]

You quit in the exact moment where you really, really should not. I know it's hard but that is why you do it!

I remember my introduction to Vipassana and it was HELL. Hell. It was (and is tot his day) the hardest I had to do ever. I went back for more a year after and I remember sitting on the train thinking WFT have I been thinking to do this again...The second time round was easier, but not by that much.

I can't go anymore because I'm meditating with other techniques and they don't accept it, and that is fine.

But I will say Vipassana was for sure groundbreaking for me because it shocked me into another dimension of being which I did not know existed before.

 

 

[Leo Gura]

Meditation retreats are definitely no picnic. Get ready for the most painful week of your life (especially if you're a newbie). You will experience withdrawals as bad as a heroin junkie.

But that's the Devil leaving your body

[severedfred]

@ajasatya @Leo Gura @vibrate

Shit, this post scares the shit out of me! Is this how meditation is suppose to be done? I mean, what the fuck have I been doing then? 
*hard swallow*

I mean, for you who have a little more experience, what would you recommend a newbie? I can take suffering, but is there some more strategic way to go about this? Or is this like: stop feeling temp with your toes and just jump in the damn water kind of thing?

Edited August 26, 2017 by severedfred

[Leo Gura]

@severedfred Go to a retreat and take a dip in the pool of emptiness

[ajasatya]

59 minutes ago, severedfred said:

I mean, for you who have a little more experience, what would you recommend a newbie? I can take suffering, but is there some more strategic way to go about this? Or is this like: stop feeling temp with your toes and just jump in the damn water kind of thing?

take your time because it's a long process.

do you know why you should purify yourself or are you just believing in what we say?

[severedfred]

@ajasatya

Well, both. I do believe in what you say, but I also kind of feel that I'm drowning in my own suffering in a way. Like, I just know facing this shit inside is what I need to do, it scares me, hold me back, controls my actions.. It really scares me to think about facing it. It gotta be something important my ego is hiding behind all that fear right? Something I never seen, or can understand until I've seen it. Thats what I want to do. See, feel, understand.

[ajasatya]

1 minute ago, severedfred said:

It really scares me to think about facing it. It gotta be something important my ego is hiding behind all that fear right? Something I never seen, or can understand until I've seen it. Thats what I want to do. See, feel, understand.

your words made me speechless. i'm actually fascinated by the illusory curtains of maya right now.

so tell me. what's this thing that's been hiding stuff from you?

[severedfred]

@ajasatya oh damn, you talking in riddles.. But I'll play  

The thing.. what is the thing.. I don't see something other can see, I don't know the truth of things, of "me". What is keeping me from seeing the truth. 

FEAR? is that the answer? 

Edited August 26, 2017 by severedfred

[ajasatya]

7 minutes ago, severedfred said:

you talking in riddles

no man, i'm trying to show you how you're the one creating riddles. there's nothing being hidden from you and there's nothing hiding things from you.

are you reading these words in a computer screen? what do you think your computer is fundamentally made of? WHAT is reading these words?

there's nothing looking through the eyes that see these words. the Universe itself is looking through those eyes.

[severedfred]

51 minutes ago, ajasatya said:

no man, i'm trying to show you how you're the one creating riddles. there's nothing being hidden from you and there's nothing hiding things from you.

are you reading these words in a computer screen? what do you think your computer is fundamentally made of? WHAT is reading these words?

there's nothing looking through the eyes that see these words. the Universe itself is looking through those eyes.

@ajasatya

okey, so from where I'm sitting, this metafor explains what I just experienced: 

Ruth 87 have a computer problem and ask Steve Jobs for help, whereupon he tells her to begin with removing the motherboard from the computer.

I often stop and read your answers in the middle of threads since you give the sense of knowing your shit. I try to learn from people like you. 
Problem is, either enlightened people like you are a bit tired of us sheep, trying to understand whats on the other side of the fence, to many give up, to many still seek the shortcuts and quick fixes, so the advice seem unappreciated. And you been telling 200 sheep to just take a chance and jump to the other side, in a nutshell.

Or, some is not ment for teachings, the part where you put yourself in someone els's shoes, trying to understand there situation and look for an opening to make them understand what there is they missing. How to get them to understand. Either way, this is not it, this is me not understanding your point.

I will live the rest of my life trying, being open, loving, seeking truth. Seeking what I imagine you trying to teach me in your post. But I can't say anything els but this to what you wrote: 

I don't understand what you trying to tell me. And that sucks. 

Edited August 26, 2017 by severedfred

[ajasatya]

@severedfred your sincerity is a jewel, but don't put me in a pedestal because it will make things harder for you.

the baghavad gita mentions 3 paths for spiritual realization:

• the path of the servant and selfless actions
• the path of devotion to a mental symbol of Truth
• the path of transcendental knowledge

according to what i feel from your words, maybe you should try the path of the servant. it's a genuine form of purification. of course it has its own traps, just like all other paths. one should be constantly watching what motivates him. is he motivated by ego or by genuine compassion? how does he feel in the heart?

if you can't understand what i say now, it's fine! there's no need to bash yourself. kindness works better

haribol!

Edited August 26, 2017 by ajasatya

[Falk]

On 22.8.2017 at 5:30 PM, ajasatya said:

wonderful! you've had the chance to feel it!

can you understand now? that gross layer of latent suffering must go away. otherwise it will crawl into your thoughts, words and actions 24/7.

Great Comment imho!

It is exaclty THIS, a chance to FEEL the pain , to discover , to open up and allow the pain.

Also i think when to horror and the pain gets so overwhealming you can let out an equally horrible groan  just to express physically and let it manifest what is happening now!

You wont believe how freeing this can be. (also make shure no neighbours are around or they will think you are either insane or into some really weired sex-practices  ) 

ok namasté mofos

[severedfred]

1 hour ago, ajasatya said:

@severedfred your sincerity is a jewel, but don't put me in a pedestal because it will make things harder for you.

the baghavad gita mentions 3 paths for spiritual realization:

• the path of the servant and selfless actions
• the path of devotion to a mental symbol of Truth
• the path of transcendental knowledge

according to what i feel from your words, maybe you should try the path of the servant. it's a genuine form of purification. of course it has its own traps, just like all other paths. one should be constantly watching what motivates him. is he motivated by ego or by genuine compassion? how does he feel in the heart?

if you can't understand what i say now, it's fine! there's no need to bash yourself. kindness works better

haribol!

No worries bro I just like to know the fact that there always people to learn from. 
 

Do you only choose one path for life? Or how does that work. And why would you recommend the servant for me?  
I think the path of transcendental knowledge sound suitable for me as well. Since a value learning highly. but I don't know. 

Oh I do understand you, but enlightenment is more implementation right.. to do the work. I guess thats why its hard to explain.

[ajasatya]

32 minutes ago, severedfred said:

Oh I do understand you, but enlightenment is more implementation right.. to do the work. I guess thats why its hard to explain.

there!

some people choose one path for the entire life and they're able to live a content and fulfilled life until they die. i've seen it happen within each of the three paths.

but it wasn't the case for me. i've been implementing all of them. of course it isn't easy! i've gone into crisis countless times.

• i've experienced huge lacks of self-love trying to serve.
• i've seen horrible things trying to focus on a mental transcendental image to practice devotion.
• i've struggled with existential fears during retreats trying to transcend language, as has the OP.

but you know what? i can't express how grateful i am.
so yeah. it's about implementation. one thing at a time!

and i said those things about the path of the servant because of the following

2 hours ago, severedfred said:

I will live the rest of my life trying, being open, loving, seeking truth

saturday is prasad day on the hare krishna community that i'm part of! we offer food to God and then we serve it to the visitors and then we eat it with them!

Edited August 26, 2017 by ajasatya

[Elisabeth]

Hi all, thanks for your comments and sorry for not answering, I was enjoying my vacation offline. It seems people are reading and I'm getting some feedback, so I'll comment a bit more. 

On 26. 8. 2017 at 11:27 AM, severedfred said:

@ajasatya @Leo Gura @vibrate

Shit, this post scares the shit out of me! Is this how meditation is suppose to be done? I mean, what the fuck have I been doing then? 
*hard swallow*

1

I second this sentiment  

On 22. 8. 2017 at 5:30 PM, ajasatya said:

wonderful! you've had the chance to feel it!

can you understand now? that gross layer of latent suffering must go away. otherwise it will crawl into your thoughts, words and actions 24/7.

On 22. 8. 2017 at 6:04 PM, Richard Alpert said:

I agree with this. I have done only one vippsana retreat, but the most profound experience was really feeling the demons and suffering. That is pretty much the whole idea. there is a reason you dont talk or use electronics in retreats.

On 25. 8. 2017 at 10:06 AM, Leo Gura said:

Meditation retreats are definitely no picnic. Get ready for the most painful week of your life (especially if you're a newbie). You will experience withdrawals as bad as a heroin junkie.

But that's the Devil leaving your body

Thank you for these comments. I've been thinking about them. And I ... don't think I understand fully.

There is certainly something memorable about the moment when in the midst of crippling doubt and anxiety I realized that all I'm being asked to (and trying to) do is sit and walk in an empty room in an old house (and being somewhat - ok, a lot - hungry), meaning all the rest is indeed just in my head, and I understand how this kind of insight will come to you most easily at a retreat. 

I do also understand that I can't work on negative emotions without feeling them. Still, they probably shouldn't be the focal point of the retreat? Surely other things like relaxed awareness are more of the goal? 

On 24. 8. 2017 at 9:33 PM, Time Traveler said:

Interesting.

I've been to two Vipassana retreats (Goenka style) and both times 2/3 of  students quit before end. I was curious why because I only talked after retreat with those who stayed till end.

4

On 25. 8. 2017 at 9:27 AM, vibrate said:

You quit in the exact moment where you really, really should not. I know it's hard but that is why you do it!

 

I think it was actually a good decision to quit. I was at my limit, I wasn't sure I'd be ok in the coming months had I stayed. I had cried for hours, I was shaky and stopping to be able to direct my focus. It would have been a traumatic experience had I stayed any longer, hindering me from doing future work. 

To be more specific, I was in conflict with the practice (in multiple areas, I'll just describe one). I've had depression in the past, from which I've worked my way up to a place where my life is more or less together and at times enjoyable. I'm pretty sure the depression was at least partly due to pushing myself too much, trying to fulfil outside expectations, stepping over my own limits. Being kinder to myself, learning to manage the load I take on and focus more on the pleasurable aspects of life has been a great help. 

What I was being asked to do here was exactly what has been so problematic in the past - follow rules to the letter, hence push myself beyond limits, no control about the pace with which I do the work. I didn't find enough reasons to do that, I didn't trust that this process would actually do me any good, and I didn't know how much to trust the teacher.

It was in fact really interesting to look at that conflict (so I admit to getting some insight this way), yet two days was really enough. I conclude that I wasn't ready to do the retreat. 

Edited August 27, 2017 by Elisabeth