Nothing = Everything ?

[dead man walking]

Hi! my first post on this forum so be patient.

The question I want to discuss is if everything actually is the same as nothing.

Nothing is as hard to imagine as everything. I like to define nothing as what you observe if you take away all your senses and your possibility to imagine these sense (sight, hearing, taste, smell, touch). there is no longer an observer so you observe nothing.

With Everything I mean everything without restrictions and without observer since the observer is included. No possible way to stand outside since all are included. 

Both terms are absolute, but are they the same?

example: If everything I see is the same blue as everything else then I would not have a word for this blue and it would not exist. We cant perceive anything without contrast. So in this case everything is blue and nothing is blue at the same time. 

Does this mean that by knowing nothing we know everything? As socrates said - the only true wisdom is knowing you know nothing!

 

[ajasatya]

@dead man walking how would you attain complete ignorance?

when i was a child, this question really intrigued me. how can i think of nothing? i asked myself many many times.

have you implemented a meditation routine yet?

[harisankartj]

@dead man walking

Right now become conscious that there is nobody reading this sentence. That's all I can give you.

[RichardY]

4 hours ago, dead man walking said:

Both terms are absolute, but are they the same?

Yes. If you have everything, you have nothing.

 

 

 

[dead man walking]

I love to have someone (no-one)  to discuss these things with!

Yes I meditate every day. Attain complete ignorance? I dont know anything and I have never known anything so there is nothing to attain. but just as a paradox do everything (nothing) point at me being here knowing things and writing this.

Okej RichardY you are confirming my thought but please elaborate and give me some more arguments because my mind sometime gets a bit lost and tries to label, reject logic and cling to dogma. 

And if I ever will discuss these things with not so open minded people harisankartj´s arguments wont be enough.

[ajasatya]

15 hours ago, dead man walking said:

Attain complete ignorance? I dont know anything and I have never known anything so there is nothing to attain.

no it's not that. it's a mystical experience. zen practitioners spend years cultivating the kind of life in which these experiences arise in their meditative practices. i'm talking about moments of true not knowing. no thinking. just presence. it's not philosophical as you stated, it's deeply experiential.

[Prabhaker]

@dead man walking

Only nothingness can be infinite; somethingness is bound to be finite. Only out of nothingness is an infinite expanse of life, existence, possible - not out of somethingness. God is not somebody: He is nobody or, more correctly, nobodiness. God is not something: he is nothing or, even more correctly, no-thingness. He is a creative void.

Never for a single moment think that nothingness is a negative state, an absence, no. Nothingness is simply no-thingness. Things disappear, only the ultimate substance remains. Forms disappear, only the formless remains. Definitions disappear, the undefined remains.

The awakening of a buddha is total. In that total awakening there is a luminous awareness surrounded by a positive nothingness. It is not empty, it is overfull. Things have disappeared... and what has remained is inexpressible. We try to express it as blissfulness, as ecstasy, as eternal joy, but these are just faraway echoes of the real thing.

 Osho, The Great Zen Master Ta Hui, Talk #16

[RichardY]

"I know that I know nothing"

All the following Speculative and disjointed.

Is it possible to  believe without knowing? Faith. In a funny way atheists believe without knowing, without knowing that they believe. Annoyingly I believe in God, but do not know God(perhaps nothing) and this angers me greatly, though I do not why. To refute is to believe, but not necessarily know.

Is it possible to no longer believe in a thing, but know it. People believe in pain or suffering, I think it maybe possible to no longer believe, but know. Such a phenomena may be expressed in an outer body experience.

Noble Truths. Truth of Suffering. Cause of Suffering. End of Suffering. Path out of suffering.

Qualia

On 8/17/2017 at 3:07 PM, dead man walking said:

example: If everything I see is the same blue as everything else then I would not have a word for this blue and it would not exist. We cant perceive anything without contrast. So in this case everything is blue and nothing is blue at the same time. 

So the mind draws qualitative distinctions. But why should the mind have to draw qualitative distinctions in a particular way? Couldn't it be other ways. Who's to say what looks blue to you looks pink to me? Culturally there are differences in the preferences of colour.

 

Transcendental Morality

"Egoism is the very essence of a noble soul." Nietzsche. 

Perhaps to study the ego, to nail it down and by accomplishing such a feat, transcend.

Fire; hot burns. Fear of fire. Fear of the unknown. Reflex action. Ability to override. To embrace the unknown. To embrace darkness. But not to become one with it.

13 “Go in through the narrow gate. The gate that leads to destruction is broad and the road wide, so many people enter through it. 14 But the gate that leads to life is narrow and the road difficult, so few people find it.

Matthew 7

 

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Matthew 16

 

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him. Matthew 4

 

Maybe there are some Buddhist or Daoist passages that say similar things.

 

 

 

[dead man walking]

 

Quote

Never for a single moment think that nothingness is a negative state, an absence, no. Nothingness is simply no-thingness. Things disappear, only the ultimate substance remains. Forms disappear, only the formless remains. Definitions disappear, the undefined remains.

I have made that mistake. But I agree it is not a negative state, it is as you say nothingness.

I do not know how to respond to the other posts. I often come across these creative explanations but they do not give me much if there is no logic behind it. 

[Shin]

It will be interpreted as negative from the brain, just as a "negative" emotion and physical pain are seen as indesirable (=suffering).

If you know that, it's easier to get lost in it, but a tremoundous amount of fear and mental pain will be there.

 

What Socrates means, is that if you admit to yourself that you truly don't know (like fore real real), ultimately the answer will come as an insight from the source (nothingess/infinity).

You think Eckhart Tolle know what will come from his mouth ?
No he doesn't, he says so himself, he knows nothing personally, almost everything comes from the source when he speaks.

[Leo Gura]

@dead man walking It is simply impossible to imagine Nothingness. You are trying to imagine God. All ideas you have of it, including your ideas of "everything" and "nothing" are not it, not even close.

If you want to understand, the best thing to do is: A) Self-inquire, B) psychedelics.

The problem with the human mind is that it just cannot resist trying to imagine God. But the more it tries, the more wrong it is. You're not going to get much better than the descriptions I gave in my Absolute Infinity episodes.

[dead man walking]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@dead man walking It is simply impossible to imagine Nothingness. You are trying to imagine God. All ideas you have of it, including your ideas of "everything" and "nothing" are not it, not even close.

If you want to understand, the best thing to do is: A) Self-inquire, B) psychedelics.

This is my experience too, it just slips away like a paradox. 

20 minutes ago, Shin said:

You think Eckhart Tolle know what will come from his mouth ?
No he doesn't, he says so himself, he knows nothing personally, almost everything comes from the source when he speaks.

Okay so Eckhart Tolle says its true and therefore it is? 

Edited August 18, 2017 by dead man walking

[Visitor]

Nothing is potentially everything.