Enlightenment Pitfalls

[ajasatya]

46 minutes ago, egoless said:

I wish I could do it but from my current state it would be just pure leap of belief. And I as a rational person don't like seeking the Truth based on belief. That's why I did not choose the path of religion. I still did not empirically witnessed the Truth myself. If I decide to do what you did I should be 100% sure that the path of Enlightenment - what we call is the only path of the Truth. It will mean that I will have to sacrifice almost everything thus I need to be sure...

well, that's zen. no beliefs at all. just mindfulness practices all day long. zen is not a religion. zen is a method to train the mind to be present.

what do you think zen monks do? pray to god? haha

zen monks practice stillness and silence from morning to night. from bed to bed. a zen monastery is just a working facility for mindfulness practices.

[egoless]

@ajasatya nope buddy I meant the fact that you left everything and went in soltitude

[Shanmugam]

1 minute ago, egoless said:

@Shanmugam because I am huge overthinker. And living in the moment and feeling presence helps that compulsive thinking. Plus I see the great wisdom in Ekhart's speeches.

thats good.. If living in the moment helps you in some way, that itself should give you the reason to go ahead with the practice.. Gradually, the compulsive thinking will stop. 

[egoless]

5 minutes ago, Shanmugam said:

thats good.. If living in the moment helps you in some way, that itself should give you the reason to go ahead with the practice.. Gradually, the compulsive thinking will stop. 

Yes it helps me if I identify myself as what Enlightent people call ego. ( for me it's my inner voice saying "I" who is self aware, has inner hearing and inner sight) But as soon as I begin to look for that pure awareness Nothingness which is supposed to be my true self I become confused and I feel even more duality then before.

Edited August 7, 2017 by egoless

[ajasatya]

1 minute ago, egoless said:

Yes it helps me if I identify myself as what Enlightent people call ego. ( for me it's my inner voice saying "I" who is self aware and has inner hearing) But as soon as I begin to look for that pure awareness Nothingness which is supposed to be my true self I become confused and I feel even more duality then before.

that's because you're still creating a mental model for whatever you are. you're still to find out what being completely free of mental self-image feels like.

in practice, just watch your breath. don't think about what you are. that's why i talk about zen. it's because the practice of zen is enlightenment itself.

[egoless]

@ajasatya Yes but should I trust you? Don't get me wrong you seem like an awesome person but I mean when we speak about the Ultimate Truth. You are offering me a path which may take decades till I get Enlightenment right? That's quite a commitment right? Suppose you are lying to me or you are mistaken yourself. How would I know before I actually get Enlighted. That's why it still seems the path of Belief. Because initially you don't have any "proof".

Edited August 7, 2017 by egoless

[Shanmugam]

@egoless  Don't try to look for pure awareness... You can never find it as an object because that is the subject itself.. Everything is happening in the field of consciousness, which is the subject..

The problem doesn't arise when you keep witnessing the thoughts... It only arises when try to do something, like contemplation of concepts such as nothingness and awareness... When it happens, witness the thought that contemplates.. Just observe those thoughts as they occur with full attention. Once you try to contemplate on such concepts, you are moving away from being a witness.

Your consciousness is like the sky and thoughts are like clouds.. Witness the contents of your consciousness just like witnessing the moving clouds.. When a thought such as 'is this nothingness? how can I find nothingness' arises, it is also a thought, it is also like a cloud in the sky of consciousness. Recognize that thought for what it is, witness that thought passing by and be curious about what your next thought is going to be. 

[egoless]

@Shanmugam  You explain very good man. But let me ask you why can't my inner voice be Me who is self witnessing itself with inner sight and hearing?

[ajasatya]

@egoless i'm not offering you a path. it's actually impossible for you to accept someone else's path, even if you wanted to go through it. i simply said what i did.

do you think you can become enlightened? that's just a belief. Truth is never coming to you nor is it leaving you.

what we human beings really need is training. we have to learn how to deal with this incredibly powerful tool which we call mind, otherwise we feel run over.

the day you will become enlightened will never come. you can just acquire fluency when dealing with the mind. you can achieve domain over your emotions and be a master of yourself. but trying to become something else is madness.

[egoless]

@ajasatya then if someone who is Enlightened is so sure that the Ultimate Truth is pure Nothingness and knowing it is so relieving and beautiful why does not he suicide and end the physical body and ego completely?

[Shanmugam]

@egoless  How is it possible? If something can be observed by you, that cannot be you... But don't solidify this into a concept.. This logic is only used an as approach or an aid.. 

When you try to do mindfulness, you have to go ahead with the premise that whatever is observed by you is not you.. But you don't have to make it as a concept and wonder if you have to believe it or not..

You still can define 'you' as a collection of the aggregates such as your body, your thoughts etc for the sake of communication. But it is only for the sake of communication.  The word 'you' can be still used as a point of reference. But a point of reference doesn't have any more reality to it than being just a point of reference.

The problem arises only when this 'you' gets more importance than it deserves.. That is why people suffer.

[ajasatya]

@egoless because the so-called "enlightened person" has learned to accept it all and has found happiness. living has become a blessing.

[egoless]

@ajasatya what will this person feel when let's say someone kills his dog? Or... what does this person feel if he witnesses the rape?

Edited August 7, 2017 by egoless

[egoless]

@Shanmugam but yet the teaching says that Nothingness is self aware. Than why can't my inner voice be self aware?

[ajasatya]

@egoless sadness. but this person experiences it so deeply and in such a pure and direct way that it fades away quickly. that's the real beauty of human feelings. soon enough he'll be immersed in his practice of presence.

[egoless]

@ajasatya why would he feel sadness if he already realised that "he" is reality itself? And one thing that I dislike about these teachings is that they say that for One there is no evil or good... I would be glad if I missunderstood that part and it is otherwise.

Edited August 7, 2017 by egoless

[ajasatya]

@egoless when i feel sad, the universe is feeling sadness through me. why is it wrong? i don't find sadness a bad thing. suffering comes from resisting to sadness. fear of sadness is a nightmare.

if you find some teaching useless, if it doesn't touch your heart, then throw it away. just be sincere. teachings are not absolute.

some people may need to listen to that teaching of no evil/good to become free of some useless feeling of guilt. in fact, we're not evil nor good. we can be ignorant. we're born ignorant and then we learn to live as we grow. we start to notice how we hurt ourselves and others and then we stop doing it. or at least we minimize it. that's all.

[egoless]

@ajasatya dude I am totally confused now  so when you say you are one with everything and everybody. Do you identify as killer too? If you are reality itself is not that so?

[Shanmugam]

2 minutes ago, egoless said:

@Shanmugam but yet the teaching says that Nothingness is self aware. Than why can't my inner voice be self aware?

I think your problem is with the word 'nothingness'... Not sure in what context you came across the statement 'Nothingness is self aware' and for me just this statement alone doesn't mean anything at all.

But I can see what the author would have meant and I can elaborate on it.

What is a 'thing'? It can be anything that can be witnessed by your senses or in the consciousness. By this definition, a thought is also a 'thing'. So, you, who witnesses any thing cannot be a thing. It is a no-thing . The word no-thingness is probably more clear than nothingness.

You keep trying to conceptualize who you are... Anyway, if you think your inner voice is self-aware, thats ok for now. Just go ahead with what you are practicing, if it is working for you.. 

 

[egoless]

@Shanmugam yes I think there are two possibilities: maybe I missunderstood lot of teaching because English is not my main language or you are all wrong  well my inner self is not thing but it has inner voice hearing and inner sight. Can you tell me why it can't be so? And maybe it is attached to physical world through pineal gland which recieves physical external information with the help of the brain?

Edited August 7, 2017 by egoless