Understanding Absolute Infinity

[Nahm]

@egoless it's all so perfectly convincing.

[Dodo]

14 minutes ago, egoless said:

@Dodo If the world is a web of bieliefs who is the believer?

if I call that limited perspective I have on reality "Me" does me still do not exist? Explain.

Is the main idea that being and not being is the same in reality? Nothing exists in reality? And nothing feels exactly like everything?

Yeah the "Me" is part of the web. The "web of beliefs" is probably also part of the web of beliefs Lol. These things will be naturally paradoxical to the mind as they should. 

The believer of the web of beliefs is the initial belief that of I. Who is having the I thought?  Well self enquire, I mean its you. Nothingness is the effortless creator of everything.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Dodo

[egoless]

So if all these are paradoxical and illogical to even very intellectual mind then how does it make better job at explaining the Truth then Religion or Science. Well we can say that it's about Enlightenment and you start to feel it afterwards. Well.. I also have known religious people so strong in their beliefs in the God that they literally were feeling the presence of God.

Edited August 4, 2017 by egoless

[egoless]

Once again to perfectly understand each other and leave no room for misunderstanding. What is the Enlightment. Is it the feeling of the Truth or is it Knowing of the Truth? If it is a feeling then I won't trust my feeling because it is part of that reality it is inside the reality. If the Enlightenment is knowing the Truth then tell me what are the Foundational proofs of that knowledge.

Edited August 4, 2017 by egoless

[Dodo]

5 minutes ago, egoless said:

So if all these are paradoxical and illogical to even very intellectual mind then how does it make better job at explaining the Truth then Religion or Science. Well we can say that it's about Enlightenment and you start to feel it afterwards. Well.. I also have known religious people so strong in their beliefs in the God that they literally were feeling the presence of God.

Don't look at others much for this.. Look at everything as opinion - carry out your own investigation and get your own insights verified by the actuality of your experience. Don't believe in what im saying or anyone else, this is adding to the web of beliefs.

Also, I want to add that when someone else tells you something, you may interpret it in a completely different way than they intended to express.

[Dodo]

9 minutes ago, egoless said:

Once again to perfectly understand each other and leave no room for misunderstanding. What is the Enlightment. Is it the feeling of the Truth or is it Knowing of the Truth? If it is a feeling then I won't trust my feeling because it is part of that reality it is inside the reality. If the Enlightenment is knowing the Truth then tell me what are the Foundational proofs of that knowledge.

What knows the feeling? What knows the knowing? What knows the not knowing? Finding that (and abiding as that) is enlightenment (finding the true you, not as a thought or belief, but experientially). 

Big help is that you are not any form (form includes all mind stuff - thoughts, beliefs, sensations, feelings etc etc). 

Edited August 4, 2017 by Dodo

[egoless]

@Dodo When I started journey of the Truth from my early teens I decided to start from 0. I decided not to believe anyone in the process of seeking the Truth including Myself. I don't trust you nor Leo on that matter and will never take the Truth for granted. That is why I ask so deeply into this topic of Enlightenment and 5-Meo. I can't afford to make a leap of belief because belief may be the foundation of delusion as we agree on that. 

9 minutes ago, Dodo said:

What knows the feeling. Finding that is enlightenment (finding the true you, not as a thought or belief, but experientially)

Who "finds that Truth" ?

Edited August 4, 2017 by egoless

[Dodo]

9 minutes ago, egoless said:

@Dodo When I started journey of the Truth from my early teens I decided to start from 0. I decided not to believe anyone in the process of seeking the Truth including Myself. I don't trust you nor Leo on that matter and will never take the Truth for granted. That is why I ask so deeply into this topic of Enlightenment and 5-Meo. I can't afford to make a leap of belief because belief is the foundation of delusion as we agree on that. 

Who "finds that Truth" ?

The same space that knows everything else. The space of awareness.

I like to classify these three paradigms, maybe it may help you.

Matter paradigm - you think/believe you're brain and body.

Mind paradigm - you think you're something inside the body (Ego)

Consciousness paradigm - you know yourself as the wider knowing space in which all experience ( mind, body and world) happens. This space is dimensionless hence cannot be seen or dissected by science. 

Only you can know it, because it is you.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Dodo

[egoless]

@Dodo but still what is the foundational proof of that Truth? If we question everything there can't be any foundation at all... what prooves that Truth is that concept and not something else?

[Dodo]

2 minutes ago, egoless said:

@Dodo but still what is the foundational proof of that Truth? If we question everything there can't be any foundation at all... what prooves that Truth is that concept and not something else?

Yes, the foundation is nothingness,  correct 

[egoless]

2 minutes ago, Dodo said:

Yes, the foundation is nothingness,  correct 

Ok. Then let's philosophize. If we don't have foundational proof of this concept. Let's imagine that reality is like in the movie matrix. We were captured by machines and connected to artificial digital world. What if then Enlightenment what you call in this reality means nothing in outside layer of reality? What then? How you are sure that this is not the case? 

[Dodo]

2 minutes ago, egoless said:

Ok. Then let's philosophize. If we don't have foundational proof of this concept. Let's imagine that reality is like in the movie matrix. We were captured by machines and connected to artificial digital world. What if then Enlightenment what you call in this reality means nothing in outside layer of reality? What then? How you are sure that this is not the case? 

My purpose is not to philosophise, but to find truth. Enlightenment and truth is more about practice than about theory, because as you can see from my paradigm's point of view every philosophical point the bodymind can muster will also be included within me experientially. 

I am more interested in what That is, rather than the object appearing in That.

What is true absolutely in first hand experience is awareness. This is the portal.

[egoless]

3 minutes ago, Dodo said:

My purpose is not to philosophise, but to find truth. Enlightenment and truth is more about practice than about theory, because as you can see from my paradigm's point of view every philosophical point the bodymind can muster will also be included within me experientially. 

I am more interested in what That is, rather than the object appearing in That.

What is true absolutely in first hand experience is awareness. This is the portal.

But how? How can you find the Ultimate Truth if there are different layers of reality and you are trapped in the last layer? What if finding The Truth in this layer of reality means nothing in the consecutive layer of reality? Why do you make the assumption that reality does not have layers? 

Edited August 4, 2017 by egoless

[Dodo]

6 minutes ago, egoless said:

But how? How can you find the Ultimate Truth if there are different layers of reality and you are trapped in the last layer? What if finding The Truth in this layer of reality means nothing in the consecutive layer of reality? Why do you make the assumption that reality does not have layers? 

What is true absolutely will be true in any layer.

And yes, awareness is nothing, but in your experience,  are you aware? Frankly idgaf if we are in a dream within a dream within a dream or if we are in the matrix or whatever other mind paradigm is thrown out there... I am aware now always, this is all I need to investigate awareness. 

[egoless]

@Dodo who are you talking to? Why do you refer to yourself as "I"? Basically you are saying that Nothing exists. Nothing is aware of itself. And it feels exactly as everything is aware of itself which is Nothing itself. Right? But these are all words. What is the proof? Proof is Nothing. What is the Truth? Truth is nothing as well then. Are you saying that? If so then what is the difference between "you" and religious person who also says: "I don't have proof of my religion not internal not external but I believe it! I am just aware that is the Truth and I call it the belief?" Do you see my point here?

Edited August 4, 2017 by egoless

[Dodo]

21 minutes ago, egoless said:

@Dodo who are you talking to? Why do you refer to yourself as "I"? Basically you are saying that Nothing exists. Nothing is aware of itself. And it feels exactly as everything is aware of itself which is Nothing itself. Right? But these are all words. What is the proof? Proof is Nothing. What is the Truth? Truth is nothing as well then. Are you saying that? If so then what is the difference between "you" and religious person who also says: "I don't have proof of my religion not internal not external but I believe it! I am just aware that is the Truth and I call it the belief?" Do you see my point here?

I see your point,  but experientially even belief belongs to that field of awareness,  and it is verified in experience,  therefore is not a belief. There's the difference. 

@egoless It's not about me proving it to you in words. As the Tao te ching says "the truth that can be spoken is not the truth". It's about you experiencing the truth for yourself. Not intellectually. 

I am only typing out an intellectual understanding,  because you asked me to entertain you. This understanding is shaped by my self-enquiry practice of 1 year

Edited August 4, 2017 by Dodo

[egoless]

2 minutes ago, Dodo said:

I see your point,  but experientially even belief belongs to that field of awareness,  and it is verified in experience,  therefore is not a belief. There's the difference 

But experience is part of this reality. How can something verify and grasp the whole if it is only part of it? What do you experience it with? Feeling? Consciousness? Thought?

[Dodo]

3 minutes ago, egoless said:

But experience is part of this reality. How can something verify and grasp the whole if it is only part of it? What do you experience it with? Feeling? Consciousness? Thought?

That would depend on your paradigm.  If you believe the thought (even unconsciously) that you are the body-mind, there is an outside you and you are a spec of dust in an infinite universe. This in my view is the dream.

[egoless]

9 minutes ago, Dodo said:

@Dodo are you Enlightened? Tell me one technique in the practice which you think is the most effective way out there to get Enlightened.

 

[Dodo]

3 minutes ago, egoless said:

 

Nobody is enlightened 

@egoless The practice to find you are nobody is Self inquiry 

Edited August 4, 2017 by Dodo