Eternal Bliss Is Not A Myth

[Shanmugam]

I hear many people say that enlightenment doesn't end in eternal bliss and such a thing is not possible.. But some scriptures in Vedanta as well as many vedantins say otherwise. Here is what they say: Enlightenment doesn't have to cause eternal bliss but there are some people who actually attain this bliss because of their Prarabdha karma.

Ancient text called Yoga vashista, speaks about 7 bhumikas, the stages of enlightenment.. Out of this, only the first four are really the stages of enlightenment.. The fourth stage is called Moksha. After that, attainment of 5th, 6th and 7th only happens for rare individuals due to their prarabdha karma..

I also remember Ramana Maharshi saying to a disciple in a conversation that a jnani is in the 4th state. In the fourth state, duality completely dissolves.. As far as a jnani is concerned, a jnani in the 5th state is no superior than the one in the 4th state, because both have lost the sense of individual existence, so there are really not two persons to compare. Only for the onlookers, there is an apparent superiority in the jnani of the 5th stage. A jnani in the 7th state can go into samadhi and never come back alive...

Here is an excerpt that I found online which has some citations as well:

http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/2010-May/024462.html

Here is a conversation between Ramana and a seeker:

Question: To which of the seven stages of knowledge [jnana-bhoomikas] does the sage [jnani] belong?

Bhagavan: He belongs to the fourth stage.

Question: If that is so why have three more stages superior to it been distinguished?

Bhagavan: The marks of the stages four to seven are based upon the experiences of the realised person [jivanmukta]. They are not states of knowledge and release. So far as knowledge and release are concerned no distinction whatever is made in these four stages.

Question: As liberation is common to all, why is the varistha [literally, the most excellent] alone praised excessively?

Bhagavan: So far as the varistha’s common experience of bliss is concerned he is extolled only because of the special merit acquired by him in his previous births which is the cause of it.

Question: As there is no one who does not desire to experience constant bliss what is the reason why all sages [jnanis] do not attain the state of varistha?

Bhagavan: It is not to be attained by mere desire or effort. Karma [prarabdha] is its cause. As the ego dies along with its cause even in the fourth stage [bhoomika], what agent is there beyond that stage to desire anything or to make efforts? So long as they make efforts they will not be sages [jnanis]. Do the sacred texts [srutis] which specially mention the varistha say that the other three are unenlightened persons?

Question: As some sacred texts say that the supreme state is that in which the sense organs and the mind are completely destroyed, how can that state be compatible with the experience of the body and the senses?

Bhagavan: If that were so there would not be any difference between that state and the state of deep sleep. Further how can it be said to be the natural state when it exists at one time and not at another? This happens, as stated before, to some persons according to their karma [prarabdha] for some time or till death. It cannot properly be regarded as the final state. If it could it would mean that all great souls and the Lord, who were the authors of the Vedantic works [jnana granthas] and the Vedas, were unenlightened persons. If the supreme state is that in which neither the senses nor the mind exist and not the state in which they exist, how can it be the perfect state [paripurnam]? As karma alone is responsible for the activity or inactivity of the sages, great souls have declared the state of sahaja nirvikalpa [the natural state without concepts] alone to be the ultimate state.

[Shanmugam]

Here is a verse from Brihadaranyaka Upanishad Chapter 4, Section 3, verse 33:

“4.3.33   He who is perfect of body and prosperous among men. the ruler of others, and most lavishly supplied with all human enjoyments, represents the greatest joy among men. This human joy multiplied a hundred times makes one unit of joy for the Manes who have won that world of theirs. The joy of these Manes who have won that world multiplied a hundred times makes one unit of joy in the world of the celestial minstrels. This joy in the world of the celestial minstrels multiplied a hundred times makes one unit of joy for the gods by action those who attain their godhead by their actions. This joy of the gods by action multiplied a hundred times makes one unit of joy for the gods by birth, as well as of one who is versed in the Vedas, sinless and free from desire. This joy of the gods by birth multiplied a hundred times makes one unit of joy in the world of Prajapati (Viraj), as well as of one who is versed in the Vedas, sinless and free from desire. This joy in the world of Prajapati multiplied a hundred times makes one unit of joy in the world of Brahman (Hiranyagarbha), as well as of one who is versed in the Vedas, sinless and free from desire. This indeed is the supreme bliss. This is the state of Brahman, O Emperor, said ‘Yajnavalkya. I give you a thousand (cows), sir. Please instruct me further about liberation itself.’ At this Yajnavalkya was afraid that the intelligent Emperor was constraining him to finish with all his conclusions.”

Shankara also acknowledges this verse in his commentary on this Upanishad and further cites a verse from Mahabharata in his commentary:

“Vedavyasa also says, ‘The sense pleasures of this world and the great joys of heaven are not worth one-sixteenth part of the bliss that comes of the cessation of desire’ (Mbh. XII. clxxiii. 47).”

.........................

So, when you reach a stage in your life which makes you wonder 'Am I enlightened?', be careful not to delude yourself...  First of all, once your perception of reality becomes non-dual, there is not going to be an agent or a separate entity to ask 'am I enlightened', when there is true enlightenment.

Because, that is when you realize that there is no one to get enlightened; you come to realize that both bondage and liberation were illusion.. (There was no snake in the first place, all you perceived in the darkness was a rope

Go deep in your mindfulness practice, sharpen your attention and awareness to witness each and every arising thought, keep zooming into the field of consciousness and catch every though before it arises.. If you do it moment to moment, the illusory entity that you take yourself to be will completely disappear!

Mindfulness when done properly is self-inquiry; self inquiry when done properly is mindfulness... If you are able to see that they are one and the same, then you are on the right path, a fast track to enlightenment.

 

[Shin]

Quote

Mindfulness when done properly is self-inquiry; self inquiry when done properly is mindfulness... If you are able to see that they are one and the same, then you are on the right path, a fast track to enlightenment.

I quote that for posterity.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Shin

[actualized3434]

@Shanmugam  thanks... good to know

[zazed]

1 hour ago, Shanmugam said:

I also remember Ramana Maharshi saying to a disciple in a conversation that a jnani is in the 4th state. In the fourth state, duality completely dissolves.. As far as a jnani is concerned, a jnani in the 5th state is no superior than the one in the 4th state, because both have lost the sense of individual existence, so there are really not two persons to compare. Only for the onlookers, there is an apparent superiority in the jnani of the 5th stage.

I also enjoyed Ramana Maharshi's writings. And this quote of you is exactly why it doesn't lead to eternal bliss.
Bliss as we consider it, is an emotion. With the cessation of duality, who is there left to feel the emotion of bliss?
What remains to even care about feeling bliss? Why is it even important to feel this pleasant bliss? And what are pleasant feelings even?

It is just semantics and bickering when people say there is no bliss, so you are right in a way. But it is in reality totally beside the point.
In actuality, bliss is a mundane idea of the human brain. The enlightened one is above bliss even, so it is irrelevant to him. His state is unfathomable and beyond words or any comprehension of both of us now. And yet extremely simple and non-special in its non dual reality.

When there is no duality, what is there? Who/what am i really?
Is bliss not an emotion to desire, am i that desire, or that emotion itself? 
And if i am experiencing and enjoying bliss, there is bliss and there is me, so there is again duality?

If there is no duality, then yes, i am bliss. but i am also hate. i am love. i am pain. i am joy. i am green, black, blue and orange. I am high and i am low. i am sound and i am light. i am thought and i am speech. I am you and i am this one.  I am all the things, for if i was not all the things, then there is me and the separate thing. Two things is duality, and there is no duality, so they say.  

This is why it is irrelevant to think it leads to eternal bliss, its a trap of the mind/brain, a limitation to let go.
Its not that you are wrong, its just not the right question to ask perhaps? But what do i know.. I am talking about non-duality, this creates duality, because there is non-duality, and there is my talking about non-duality?!

[Shanmugam]

@zazed  actually, bliss is the nature of self itself.. it is not like experiential happiness.. You are bliss, and there is really no distinction of experiencer and experience in the bliss of self. the bliss of the self which is always mentioned is not an emotion. (what you say  is a common misunderstanding, because there is bliss but there is no duality)

The reason I posted this is to stop people from getting deluded. This is not a trap as you mentioned. It is the exact opposite.. I will tell you why.

Ego doesn't like it when enlightenment is mentioned as bliss.. Because, for the ego, it looks like a distant goal, something that cannot be achieved. Even though the whole point of enlightenment is realizing ego as an illusion and totally dissolving the sense of separate identity, paradoxically, ego also wants to get enlightened. And when enlightenment sounds like something that is very easy to attain, ego likes that idea. I have witnessed this in so many people.

If enlightenment is mentioned as eternal bliss, what is the problem for anybody to hear this?  There is no problem at all. It is the ego which wants to make it as a problem. 

In India, every scripture talks about how blissful the direct experience of atman is... When you are not enlightened yourself, why deny something that is written again and again for ages in our tradition? 

And even if this was false, it is still not misleading,.. Because, no one, after realizing their own nature going to get disappointed after seeing that it is not eternal bliss.. Trust me, you wont say "Oh my God, people cheated me saying that enlightenment is bliss, I wasted all my life to attain this and now I am disappointed". Instead, you will just relax into the peace of your true nature.

On the contrary, if enlightenment is understated, there is a danger.. Then every ego out there will be ready to declare that it is enlightened.. And that is the trap!

Anyway, as I mentioned, most of the enlightened ones are in 4th bhumika (stage)... In this stage, they are active in the world and they will go through pain and pleasure, but with no complaints or regrets.. They don't feel incomplete or diminished. Yoga vashista has the complete description of all stages.. It says that in the 6th bhumika, people cannot come out of samadhi without others help, they are always absorbed in self, with no body consciousness, and food has to be fed to their mouth while they are in samadhi, to keep them alive. Ramana maharishi was actually like this when he was in the cave. (it is funny when I read from people who say 'ramana was training his mind, he was contemplating about self  in the cave etc)... Termites were eating his body and he had absolutely no body consciousness..

I have dissolved my sense of duality three years before.. It took time to get steady; now I am always peaceful and there is a kind of pleasantness and innocence most of the time which I can't describe... But it is not like any emotions of happiness that I have usually experienced in life. It is not a distinct or special experience.  It is just the nature of reality itself. When I don't have troubling vasanas, I am usually in deep pleasant peace. It is not an emotion or feeling, it is just me. 

 

Edited August 1, 2017 by Shanmugam

[Shanmugam]

one more thing.. Out of bhumikas I mentioned, only the stage 1-4 are stages of the progress... Anything after that is something that happens out of chance.. It rarely happens that some people reach 5th, 6th or 7th bhumika... The explanation given for this is prarabha karma.. And the eternal bliss I am talking about is the bliss of the people who are in 6th or 7th bhumika.. Also, as far as the jnani is concerned, there is no inferior or superior stage after the 4th.. 

It is not so difficult to understand.. We are in bliss when we sleep and there is no duality in deep sleep. This happens everyday. The only difference in the jnani going through this bliss is that his consciousness, empty of any objects just shines.. And most of the times, these jnanis are in samadhi, absorbed in Self.

 

[cetus]

@ShanmugamA tree resides in bliss because it doesn't know it's a tree.

[123456789]

Hello @Shanmugam, your posts are really interesting to me. Could you tell me a little more about the 7th bhumika?

[Shanmugam]

@123456789  Here is the explanation of 7th bhumika given in yoga vashista:

Rishis say that the seventh janaana bhoomikaa is the last frontier of the realm of Jnaana. It is pure peace and cannot be explained by the power of speech.  Words cannot describe that state of sublime quiescence.  That is the ultimate stage – there is nothing more beyond that.

After experiencing that state, some call  it Siva, some people say it is Para Brahma, some people say it is Vishnu; and yet some say it is Soonya – Nothingness.  Some people say it is Pure Energy, some say it is unconditioned Time; and some say it is Prakruti and Purusha. The Ultimate Reality cannot be explained by words, but still people call It by different names.

After having this realisation, some start thinking about it in different manners, according to their capacities.  Although it cannot be explained by anybody at any time, still they would be trying to explain it somehow.

.........................................................

Here is the explanation of the stages 4, 5,6,7 given by Sri Abhinava Vidyatirtha MahaswaminaH, the 35th Jagadguru of Sringeri Peetham, (mutt established by Shankara):

A jñànin involved in worldly activities is referred to as a brahmavid.

If a jñànin has the practice of going into nirvikalpa-samàdhi and coming out of it on his own, he is a brahmavidvara.

If he can be awakened from nirvikalpasamàdhi only by the efforts of others, he is a brahmavidvaräyàn.

A brahmavidvariShTha is one who never emerges from nirvikalpa-samàdhi. His body perishes while he is in samàdhi. As a brahmavidvariShTha has the best pràrabdha, he is deemed the greatest jñànin.

[zazed]

@Shanmugam I agree with that interpretation of bliss. 

What i wanted to point out, is that bliss is considered a pleasurable emotion by most people.
Most people seek enlightenment to gain something, such as the pleasure to be released from their suffering. This desire in itself is in conflict with gaining enlightenment. If the desire to gain bliss is the driver for a seekers practices, then enlightenment will never be found.
It is the ego that desires.

If you define bliss as something that just is, without looking forward to it.
Then you are rare and already outside the trap of it.

 

1 hour ago, Shanmugam said:

If enlightenment is mentioned as eternal bliss, what is the problem for anybody to hear this?  There is no problem at all. It is the ego which wants to make it as a problem. 

Yes, but the ego is not just a part of you. It is what most of us are fully and completely, at least in my experience.
Its not that we are the ego in actuality, but it's all we know we are until we go deeper and let go of it.
There is no problem at all, you are right about that, but only if you are already enlightened. If not, then the ego will cling to it as a desirable outcome. This is the trap of seeking enlightenment to gain something, when in actuality it is more an act of letting go and accepting life.

Bliss is just something desirable for most normal human behinds, something they want and are striving for. 
Because of this i warn against it. It is my opinion, that focusing on desirable outcomes of enlightenment is dangerous, and beside the point.
Because bliss has no meaning or purpose for an enlightenment person, it has no value at all. It's like showing a picture to someone who is blind.
It's like asking the day of the week to a goldfish. 

 

Also i have lots of respect for your traditions. Tho i must admit, i do not know all of your religion in detail, as it is complex and vast  
So please forgive me, if i put my western spin on some insights, but is another perspective not worth wile at times? 

[Shanmugam]

@zazed I agree.. Actually, desire for enlightenment itself becomes a hindrance at one point...In that sense, yes, seeking enlightenment to gain anything is a trap.

[Nahm]

@Shanmugam eternal bliss is your natural state. Thousands of words are the veil to your natural state.

 

Edited August 2, 2017 by Nahm

[Dizzy]

2 hours ago, Shanmugam said:

@123456789  Here is the explanation of 7th bhumika given in yoga vashista:

Rishis say that the seventh janaana bhoomikaa is the last frontier of the realm of Jnaana. It is pure peace and cannot be explained by the power of speech.  Words cannot describe that state of sublime quiescence.  That is the ultimate stage – there is nothing more beyond that.

After experiencing that state, some call  it Siva, some people say it is Para Brahma, some people say it is Vishnu; and yet some say it is Soonya – Nothingness.  Some people say it is Pure Energy, some say it is unconditioned Time; and some say it is Prakruti and Purusha. The Ultimate Reality cannot be explained by words, but still people call It by different names.

After having this realisation, some start thinking about it in different manners, according to their capacities.  Although it cannot be explained by anybody at any time, still they would be trying to explain it somehow.

.........................................................

 

@Shanmugam  Would you know names of rishis that was known to be in the 6th - 7th bhumika?   ?  

[Shanmugam]

@Dizzy unfortunately, there is no just list of people that I know of.. If i find something I will let you know.. Since Ramana Maharshi was in deep samadhi in his early years, he might have been in 6th bhumika.. But his samadhis stopped after a few years..

 

Edited August 2, 2017 by Shanmugam

[AlwaysBeNice]

Yeah, the established state should be one of perfection, which may be called 'bliss', Adyashanti also has a cool quote on this: 'Who cares if you have bliss when you have love'.

David Spero also speaks about it nicely: