If Reality Is Neutral..

[SLICKHAWK]

Enlightenment is to be awake share the light of our creator YeHoVaH keep the truth salvation our messiah Yeshua. 

Once you open the eye to see ears to hear you will know truth.

Enlightened is to light out the dark as darkness consumes a room yet the smallest light will consume the dark.?

 

[Joseph Maynor]

@SLICKHAWK

When we repair our relationship with God, He repairs everything else for us.

 

Edited July 26, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[SLICKHAWK]

I find YeHoVaH hard topic in this forum yet ill pass along a few text of the word. ??? most help me along my path no fear. I only see truth Forgivness in our creator our Father.

[SOUL]

9 hours ago, The White Belt said:

Why peace then? Why don't enlightened people have chaos? If consciousness is neutral...

Being at peace with what may be swirling around us whether it be chaos or order and is probably both is not an abstinence from any turmoil or an immersion in tranquility.

[Shanmugam]

3 hours ago, Anna1 said:

@Shanmugam Sounds like you suffer from apathy...

Pleasure and pain persist after Moksha! Difference is suffering ends. The feeling that you are in some foundational way diminished. 

@Anna1 Not really apathy, just the exact opposite.. Whatever I do, I am able to do with full enthusiasm.. I get completely absorbed and become one with the task..    

But  I agree I lack many things: the ability to regret, ability to complain about  what happens in life, ability to feel anxious about future, ability to feel the emotions the same way I did (weird, huh? ) etc... And I am not suffering from it, I am enjoying the freedom that comes with it.. If I suddenly come to know that all this has nothing to do with enlightenment that is talked about by gurus but it is seriously a mental disorder, that will make no difference to the peace... 

This reminds me of a popular quote: "I'm not suffering from insanity, I'm enjoying every minute of it" 

Let me be very honest with you.. I really know absolutely nothing about how an enlightened person's mind looks like. I don't know whether he experiences pain or pleasure etc.. All I know is about my own mind and the freedom and peace that came from my own practices... And I wouldn't know what happens in the future because no one can tell. 

But I have heard different things said by different people about how an enlightened person thinks and experiences life.

There is a guru in India with millions of followers who claim that this guru has changed their lives. They are totally impressed  by him! And the guru claims that he is in ecstatic bliss all the time, he doesn't have any thoughts at all except when he has to move around, if he wants he can simply close his eyes and just die by his will etc...  

And there are other people who claim that after enlightenment there is still suffering, still craving, still anger, etc.

Finally there are people who claim that there is no suffering (the suffering which causes an individual to feel miserable , lost or diminished) but there is still pain and pleasure. This version actually is quite similar to the type of whatever disorder that I have. .. But this weird disorder also made me incapable of worrying about anything at all. 

But ultimately, enlightenment is just a word with many definitions that people have associated with some kind of liberation that happened for them, which can be verified only by them. After all, I can only know what happens in my own conscious field.. When others tell me about their field of consciousness, I don't really have any way to verify this. I just have their testimony poured into my ears...

So, Let me repeat... I don't know anything about what happens after Moksha, what persists after moksha etc. But since you are certain about it and seem to know everything that happens after moksha, let me ask you this question:

You say that pleasure and pain persist after moksha... may be.. I don't know.. I have only heard people saying so... But how do you know that for sure? Can you be absolutely certain and 100% sure about this? If yes, how?

(I am not starting another debate with you.. I am only going to ask you questions.. In the further discussions about this topic with you, I am going to maintain that I don't know)

 

[Guest username]

Raising your consciousness only makes you more aware of what is already the case. The peace of mind and happiness is just a human reaction to becoming aware of the nature of reality.

The truth is the truth for miserable people as well. Enlightened or unenlightened is the same from the perspective of the absolute because reality has no distinctions or boundaries.  

Suffering is a byproduct of ego. When you become conscious of what suffering is, you realize that it is like everything else. Ironically this dissolves the suffering. 

[Guest username]

Become directly conscious of what suffering and all the things you label as bad actually are. You should notice that reality isn't biased against them. It is all-inclusive.

[Ananta]

14 hours ago, Shanmugam said:

But since you are certain about it and seem to know everything that happens after moksha

Actually, you said first-

"They don't really feel those emotions like others do... It only appears such for the people who are watching them.. All the liberated person feels is ups and downs in energy, and a little bit of subtle sensations... In other words, their emotions are not really like the emotions of people who are unconscious."

You seem rather "certain" in this paragraph you wrote. Yes, you then say, you were talking about yourself, but then in another post say, "I don't know what happens after Moksha". However, you used language in the excerpt above regarding a liberated person and said you were talking about your own experience.

See your contradictions??

 

14 hours ago, Shanmugam said:

I am not starting another debate with you.. I am only going to ask you questions..

Lol... what is this an interview? 

14 hours ago, Shanmugam said:

In the further discussions about this topic with you, I am going to maintain that I don't know)

 

Oh, that's convenient... Ok, make that my answer too, interview done...lol!

 

[SOUL]

Reality is all of it, positive, negative, neutral and none of those.

[Shanmugam]

@Anna1 When I said I don't know, that is the absolute truth... All I can do is inference or say something based on what a teacher has said...How the hell do you think I will know for sure? 

When I said I don't know, I said that because I don't have any mystical vision to peak into their consciousness.

If you say you are certain, than how do you know? Please answer that question..

The whole point of my post was not to let your ego to rejoice in finding faults with me.. It was to ask you that question so that you can answer...I was really curious what you were going to say.

Of course, your statements also sound certain, but they are either based on what you have heard or just inference, wouldn't you agree?. (or if you had a mystical access to an enlightened person mind, please let me know) ..So, you also actually don't know for sure...

When I said I don't know, thats what I meant.. 

[Shanmugam]

@Anna1 Anyway, My only problem here is in trying to convey what I have in my mind in words...  But let me try... The reason why you see many contradictions in my replies is because of certain issues we have in determining if one is really enlightened or not...Each of my reply presents various perspectives... And everyone has the same problem.

Let us say you get enlightened... And you are absolutely sure that this is it.. And if someone asks you if an enlightened person feels pain and pleasure, your response will be solely based on whether you experience pain and pleasure or not? right?

Also, how would you conclude that you were enlightened in the first place? Based on any one definition out of thousands of definition that exists, right?

Somebody says that a thoughtless mind is an indication for enlightenment; another one says that just the disappearance of the sense of separate identity as an indication etc...

I sounded certain in my first reply, based on one widely accepted definition for enlightenment; 'disappearance of the sense of separate identity'.. And it is true that I replied based on my own state of mind and how I perceive emotions...(there is no other way to answer).. And according to this definition, I am enlightened already. 

Since you objected to that, I explained to you that I actually said that based on my own experience (and as I said, that is the only way to answer)...

My third reply was actually based on a curiosity, to see if you will ever say 'I don't know'...Since there are various definitions for enlightenment and enlightenment is just a word, I said I know nothing about enlightenment, with little sarcasm... That is just to show you that I am really not pretending to be all knowing about what enlightenment is, considering all the other definitions that exist for the word. Because, after all, whatever I say can be based only on my experience alone... Testimony of others and inference are not as reliable as what one can witness in his own consciousness. Do you get my point?

It is only because of this problem, I am writing in my blog about bridging science and spirituality.  I have already collected information about some studies and put it in an article. Also, a Vedanta teacher himself has published a paper on this here: http://www.nondualitymagazine.org/nondualitymagazine.4/nonduality_magazine.4.jivanmuktarevised_27_apr_2011.htm

 

Edited July 26, 2017 by Shanmugam

[Ananta]

@Shanmugam

So, you want to know if I'm enlightened?

I think everyone is enlightened, because all are "the Self" (awareness). 

The only reason people don't recognize this is due to ignorance of their true nature, rajas/tamas (gunas) and mental tendencies/vasanas. Which is all the "illusion" of separation.

Once, you know/apprehend your true Self (here 6 yrs ago) and that Self knowledge is firm (here-this year), the knowledge is always available (mostly) and you know you aren't the doer (this is interesting,  because there's a sense of doership, but when looked at closer..no doer).

Its like switching between the person channel and awareness channel (my teacher said something similiar). You don't always have the thought "I'm awareness" constantly running, but when called upon the knowledge is readily available. 

You play your role and do your duties (person channel), but when wanting completeness, perfection, ect. you tune into the "awareness" channel. Knowing how to navigate and switch channels is part of "assimilation" of Self knowledge.

So, yes,  Anna has emotions. They come and they go. Good example, tonight when I got home from work my husband told me my son who already has 2 car loans (and lives at home) bought a $30,000 truck yesterday . I yelled, "What!!!!" and I was pissed! It lasted 10 minutes, but now, it's gone. 

In conclusion, it doesn't matter what stage of Moksha I/Anna am at...I "got" the great cosmic joke. Essentially, none of this matters, except to remove one's suffering. There is no soul emancipation with any of this... how could there be? You are awareness and awareness is associated with the world, as well as being "all" the actors. If one actor dies, you'll be associated with another and so it continues....

Hopefully, your demand for an answer has been satisfied. 

[Shanmugam]

1 minute ago, Anna1 said:

@Shanmugam

So, you want to know if I'm enlightened?

I think everyone is enlightened, because all are "the Self" (awareness). 

The only reason people don't recognize this is due to ignorance of their true nature, rajas/tamas (gunas) and mental tendencies/vasanas. Which is all the "illusion" of separation.

Once, you know/apprehend your true Self (here 6 yrs ago) and that Self knowledge is firm (here-this year), the knowledge is always available (mostly) and you know you aren't the doer (this is interesting,  because there's a sense of doership, but when looked at closer..no doer).

Its like switching between the person channel and awareness channel (my teacher said something similiar). You don't always have the thought "I'm awareness" constantly running, but when called upon the knowledge is readily available. 

You play your role and do your duties (person channel), but when wanting completeness, perfection, ect. you tune into the "awareness" channel. Knowing how to navigate and switch channels is part of "assimilation" of Self knowledge.

So, yes,  Anna has emotions. They come and they go. Good example, tonight when I got home from work my husband told me my son who already has 2 car loans (and lives at home) bought a $30,000 truck yesterday . I yelled, "What!!!!" and I was pissed! It lasted 10 minutes, but now, it's gone. 

In conclusion, it doesn't matter what stage of Moksha I/Anna am at...I "got" the great cosmic joke. Essentially, none of this matters, except to remove one's suffering. There is no soul emancipation with any of this... how could there be? You are awareness and awareness is associated with the world, as well as being "all" the actors. If one actor dies, you'll be associated with another and so it continues....

Hopefully, your demand for an answer has been satisfied. 

Oh my God!!! You never got what I was trying to say... I  didn't want to know if you are enlightened.. I asked  to imagine a situation, as an example... 

Anyway, I am speechless... I stared at my monitor for 2 minutes to find the right words and I give up... Probably, I am not explaining it clearly..

[Ananta]

14 minutes ago, Shanmugam said:

Oh my God!!! You never got what I was trying to say... I  didn't want to know if you are enlightened.. I asked  to imagine a situation, as an example... 

Anyway, I am speechless... I stared at my monitor for 2 minutes to find the right words and I give up... Probably, I am not explaining it clearly..

You wanted to know where I was coming from with what I say...and I told you. 

When did you say to imagine a situation?

Edited July 27, 2017 by Anna1

[Ananta]

On 7/25/2017 at 8:13 PM, Shanmugam said:

No problem... But let me ask you onething... Unless you yourself are enlightened, how would you know how enlightened ones perceive emotions in a particular way?

This  ^^^  right here. Now, you have my answer.

 

You referenced how could I know for 100% certain.... when did I say 100% certain? When?

Please post the quote where I say for 100% certain, if you think such quote exists, of course it doesnt. You've made a huge deal over 3 sentences I wrote in a post. 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2017 by Anna1

[Nahm]

when you become enlightened, you leave the reality of "who is and isn't enlightened"  You see everyone is you and that all that seperates is illusion.  The fabric of the illusion of reality is Love. It is you who chose the veil, you who removes it, and once removed, there is no you, there's only Love. 

[Shanmugam]

12 hours ago, Anna1 said:

This  ^^^  right here. Now, you have my answer.

 

You referenced how could I know for 100% certain.... when did I say 100% certain? When?

Please post the quote where I say for 100% certain, if you think such quote exists, of course it doesnt. You've made a huge deal over 3 sentences I wrote in a post. 

 

 

yes.. thats because you said I was contradicting and you didn't understand why.. I just gave an explanation in detail.. 

when I sounded certain, I was as certain as you...

When I said I don't know, I was saying I am not 100% certain.

I didn't make a big deal out of it... I just gave a long explanation, thats it...I don't mind giving a long explanation, that doesn't mean I think there is a problem..

Let me give you another example...

1) Someone tells you that there is  fire behind a mountain.. This is verbal testimony. You still don't know if there is fire behind the mountain because the person might by lying or deluded

2) You see smoke behind the mountain... Now you can infer that there is fire, because there is smoke.. But you still really don't know if there is fire behind it, because the smoke may be due to a cement factory behind the mountain.

3) You actually go behind the mountain and see that there is a fire. Now, you know there is fire because you have seen it with your own eyes...

When you/I are not 100% certain, that means you/I actually don't know yet... that is the absolute truth..

You started it by finding a fault in my post.. And you are still trying to find faults... Stop finding faults in others posts, thats just ego. I see that trend in most of your posts... (the ego is saying 'I know, these people don't know yet')..Once you stop finding faults, it will save a lot of time for you..

 

 

Edited July 27, 2017 by Shanmugam

[Shanmugam]

16 hours ago, Shanmugam said:

@Anna1 Anyway, My only problem here is in trying to convey what I have in my mind in words...  But let me try... The reason why you see many contradictions in my replies is because of certain issues we have in determining if one is really enlightened or not...Each of my reply presents various perspectives... And everyone has the same problem.

Let us say you get enlightened... And you are absolutely sure that this is it..

@Anna1 Look at the sentence in my previous reply, which is bold. English is not my native language. But to my knowledge,  when someone says 'Let us say', it implies imagining a situation, am I wrong? 

[Ananta]

On 7/25/2017 at 7:54 PM, Shanmugam said:

On 7/25/2017 at 7:07 PM, Anna1 said:

Because we feel off balance, however all these emotions are part of the human existence. Accepting them and not resisting allows them to move on much quicker. 

That's ego talking. Meaning, ego wants to not feel these things and so will chase objects to feel happy.

How many so called enlightened people do you know ..well? You can't count those under a microscope during a Satsang. Emotions come and go, they're not a problem unless the ego grabs a hold of them.

Nisargadatta is a prime example, many people have accounted that he was quick to anger, even yell at people, but would turn around a few minutes later and be laughing with them.

They don't really feel those emotions like others do... It only appears such for the people who are watching them.. All the liberated person feels is ups and downs in energy, and a little bit of subtle sensations... In other words, their emotions are not really like the emotions of people who are unconscious. Emotions of people who are unconscious are very solid, opaque and they get powered by thoughts and emotions back and forth for a while.. Emotions of liberated ones are like tiny bits of distant clouds which disappear without any effort. I would feel hesitant to even call them as emotions..

@Shanmugam You were "correcting" what I said (is this fault finding to you?...hmmm)... This was your first response to me in this thread. So, when you say-

"You started it by finding a fault in my post.. "

That's actually not true. You started it.

My subsequent response to you in this thread, was in regards to your post above. Where I simply said "pleasure and pain persist after Moksha" and you have become completely bent out of shape over it. 

Even though your very next post was-

" I didn't say pain and pleasure doesn't persist... Read my post again"

?

Edited July 27, 2017 by Anna1

[Shin]