Is Enlightenment Just Degrees Of The Realization Of No Self, Or Something Deeper, Like Absolute Infinity?

[Edvard]

I've been doing these enlightenment exercises for some time now, aiming to do them more, and they're useful. I'm seeing where it's going, I suspect the key here is to train the ability to concentrate and stay aware of all sensations simultaneously, and after having reached mastery in these skills, along with surrendering the ego, the self will collapse. 

But enlightenment; that's more than experiencing "just" no self, or raw experience? Because after all, this is quite logical, and something I think a significant number of people deep inside know is true: that the only thing we can be 100% certain of is consciousness. I came at this from Sam Harris. He also talks about this, no self, and that "as a matter of experience the face and head are just more sensations arising in consciousness". I've heard you're not a fan of Harris. What differentiates you and his views on this? I guess there's a deeper thing than no self here? Understanding/seeing absolute infinity, is that what he's lacking? 

And also, what I don't understand is your seemingly absolute certainty about reality not existing. Sure, the world can never exist within raw experience, and raw experience could be viewed just as a dream and the external world an illusion, but that doesn't mean it's not external... at any rate, what experience/realisation could ever make you know that for sure - when all you can know is your consciousness, and yes, it is in many ways logical to conclude that that's the only thing that exists, but I don't understand what difference it really makes. The world is behind you, turn around. You won't remember it by living in the present, but predict that when turning around it's there, and it's there. Of course, there is no you, and turning around is just another sensation that happens within consciousness and reality, but come on, what could ever make you conclude that the physical world isn't real (or is)?? Sure, everything seems infinite (and what would "physical" even mean?), but so what? That doesn't make this unreal, or suffering unreal. I mean, isn't this just semantics, or going deeper into what many already was thinking at primary school? That "oh, maybe the whole world is just an illusion". 

 

But I do love the exercises and I think this path is meaningful and makes sense, there's just still so much I don't quite understand and things that make me confused.

Is 5-MeO-DMT a good solution here?

The Book Of Not Knowing is on its way, so I'll read that too, for now.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Edvard

[Joseph Maynor]

@Edvard Awareness is increasing, but you gotta get to the point where you completely release because there is no free will.  That's the final counter-intuitive move.  You have no control, that's an illusion.  

Remember this: Enlightenment is not attaining anything.  You just realize what is already True.  You are already enlightened, except the ego keeps throwing monkey wrenches in the gears to hide this Truth from you.  The ego tortures you with neuroses, addictions, and distractions to keep you from noticing this reality.  So, awareness is the only thing that can fix this.  There is no you to act.  That is an illusion.  Action is taking place, and you are aware of it, but you're also half-down the rabbit hole of illusion too.  The mind is in cahoots with the ego.  So, you gotta put the breaks on your mind.  That's the process, initially.  That's about where I am now with enlightenment.  The mind is the enemy.  Thought-story is evil existentially speaking.  Practically speaking, do whatever you want with thought-story.  But existentially, thought is a no-go.  The best you can get is a good scaffolding theory that sets your awareness up in the right way.  Increased awareness needs to be caused in you.  That's what all this monkey-chatter and self-inquiry does.  And you are not even in control over whether you become enlightened or not.  It's a luck of the draw.  A random variant of Nature.

But don't try to control the mind.  Paradoxically, only increased awareness dissolves the ego.  Accept all thoughts, and gently try to release the negative ones.  Disown all thoughts -- they are not your thoughts.  There is no you at the center of experiences, including sensations and thoughts.  All there is is a self-aware sensations, feelings, or thoughts, with no egoic center.  The egoic center causes a lot of the problems as well as the belief in an external world.  Those two paradigms are deadly -- the egoic paradigm (belief in an egoic self) and the external world paradigm (belief in an external world).

Watch:

And watch this one:

And this awesome one by Emerald:

 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Edvard]

The thing is, I don't believe in free will. To me, the notion of having free will is counter intuitive and impossible. I've been on a process to fulle settle and accept it as a fact for a quite wide period. When I was in my mid teens I first got the idea hitting me, when thinking about why people do "bad" stuff, and couldn't ultimately trace it down to sole responsibility/evil. But literally NO ONE talked about this. This is not something I had heard mentioned at school or society. The whole society was based on the notion that we have free will. "Was I the first to actually begin to realize this was an illusion?", I pretty much asked. That couldn't be, but given the importance of it, someone must have spoken about it before. As the years went by, I held this sort of in my pocket as a possiblity ready to be taken into heart when philosophizing more deeply about it, but I didn't completely accept it. Because I was thinking a little like: "It's quite amazing that not more people realize this, if it's true, and it's quite amazing to have realized it myself, but if it is true, I can't even take credit for it, and if I commit to this belief publicly, people may use it against me. Is this a truth that will make society better?" And I figured, at least it would give us more compassion, hatred doesn't make any sense, and the world would be less egoic if people held this belief. Additionaly, it is in a way a liberating truth, because it frees us from moral dictatorship, making self-acceptence easier and religion stops making sense (so if God wanted people to hell, they couldn't do anything about it). But I also thought it could take away responsibility. Then the internet got bigger (2011-2013) and more articles and videos of this concept appeared, so I realized I wasn't the only one. Then I stumbled into Sam Harris' talks on it on YouTube, and I was sold. Never completely though, because I have always been careful of absolute certainty of anything, but I've been getting more and more sure over the years, even more sure when I was watching Leo's video about the topic. Stumbling into Leo taught me to see my process through this for what it was; the ego resisting becoming enlightened (understanding what's true), a concept that I wasn't even aware of until I saw his enlightenment video this April (I had heard about "Nirvana", though, as something sort of related to enlightenment, I think).

The point is that the reason the notion of no free will is hard for so many to understand, is probably because such an "idea" hurts the ego, so it suppresses it. Even the thought is hard to bring to surface and contemplate. The ego wants to believe in free will, because it wants to take credit. So even though you don't believe it, you need time to digest that realization, to get used to it. I have now gotten very used to it, it's natural to me and it has made me less hateful. But I still do get stroked by regrets from the past, and there still are things that my ego wants to take credit for. I remember the first time I decided to conclude free will is an illusion and holding it in my mind. My ego was screaming a bit, and it was a weird feeling to let go of the doubt, realizing I'm just floating around in this universe, totally unpredictibly. That it sort of doesn't matter what I do, no right or wrong. And yet, most people I knew (have no idea how many) thought they were behaving freely.

I think there still are more steps I will go through in order to fully embody this fact, and when I completely do, when the ego has been punched enough, screaming on its death bed, then, enlightenment may occur. That's what I'm thinking.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Edvard

[Edvard]

Now, this seems a little deeper than free will, an understanding that may actually come naturally after the understanding of free will. Hard to grasp what this really means, though. What would "physical" be anyway?

He adresses the issues I mentioned in my post, but I don't get all that much more out of it. Except that I think what he might mean is that it's more a matter of ideology and being aware that assuming the physical world is real is ideological. Maybe we actually agree, but that it makes me more aware and openminded that things that have been taken for granted my whole life, I have no way of knowing for certain is true. I have been having those thougths, but haven't been taking them too seriously. That is, on the other hand, really quite obvious. The clue is to be aware of it, enough; that all you know is direct experience, and by that becoming enlightened. "To pay close enough attention to the present moment so that you're not doing anything to it", as Sam Harris puts it

I mean, is this basically what enlightenment is, or is it something deeper, and even more counterinuitive?

Edited July 25, 2017 by Edvard

[AleksM]

@Edvard Enlightenment is realizing Truth,no self, consciousness, absolute infinity (just different labels pointing to the same  "thing").  Then after the realization accurs (when you get a glimpse of consciousness) you have to start to embody more of that realization in your daily experience of life and this is where the real hard work is, realization is easy, embodyment is hard. When you embody/anchor consciousness in the now moment suffering stops and this is the point of spirituality.

[Moreira]

According bentinho massaro these are the degrees, hope this help you tu get the point

 

[Leo Gura]

@Edvard "Just No-Self"?

Hehe... you're thinking of it that way because you're thinking about it, not actually being it.

The only thing there is, is ONE thing. Everything boils down to getting truer and truer about what this ONE thing (reality/The Self) really is. There are many layers and facets to this ONE thing, but ultimately, it's all ONE thing. You're peeling back an onion one layer at a time.

To experience No-Self is good and important. But it's not the ultimate level. Absolute Infinity (which is not separate from No-Self) takes the cake.

When you answer the question: What am I?, that will be the No-Self facet.

When you answer the question: What is reality?, that will be the Absolute Infinity facet.

Both are the same object. Just different facets and depths.

The insight of No-Self reveals that you, the ego, is an illusion. This insight can feel a bit dry or empty. Perhaps a bit nihilistic.

The insight of Absolute Infinity reveals God in all its glory. This insight is so enormously rich, it will make you weep like a baby.

[Erlend K]

Different tratiotions view this differently, so there are no objective answer.

Buddha thought enlightenment as consisting of four stages where reaching each stage gives a direct glimse of emptiness, and leads to a permanent shift of the mind. He allso taught that insight into non-self is just one of the three fundamental insights into the nature of reality (along with nonsatisfacoriness and impermanence) required for enlightenment.

Geffory Martin has performed depth interviews with 1000s of contemplatives from most major contemplative traditions, who are viewed as highly realized within their own respective tradition. His conclusion is that there are roughly four different categories of cognitive/phenomenological shifts that practitioners can experience, depending on the methods used. These include shifts in sense of self, emotions, thought paterns etc. All of these can be viewed as "enlightenment" / the ultimate spiritual goal from various contemplative traditions.

F.i, in the christian/bramanistic mystical traditions the endpoint is a sense of unity with gods love/allness, which is stage three in Martins scheme. In Buddhism the endpoint is eradication of the sense of there being a Self (There is no core in your mind that is "me". Our mind is just some kind of hierarchi of partialy cooperating, partialy competing mental processes that produce mental phenomena that constantly apear and disapear in a field of awareness, which is also not "you", but just another impersonal mental mechanism/aggregate), combined with insight into impermanence and dissatisfactoriness. 

[Haumea]

I don't think there's that much disagreement actually, just varying descriptions of the same stages of enlightenment.

There's entry into non-duality: "localized" no-self, characterized by non-doership/spontaneous action; then cosmic self, i.e. "I am the universe" feeling; then God Consciousness, i.e. the pure "I am" feeling, the seed of manifestation; then nirvikalpa samadhi, i.e. "the Buddha has been met on the road and killed", i.e. "I am the truth", and then the Ultimate or Absolute, where the I-thought has been terminated and no longer arises: sahaja.  "No Other, No World, No Enlightened Being, Nothing Ever Happened, etc."

The entire process after ego death is eliminating the subtle aspects of mind that cause The Other to arise.

 

Edited August 15, 2017 by Haumea

[No-Thing]

@Leo Gura @Edvard In this model 

No self is stage 2 and realizing god is stage 3.

You can cry and weep about being god all day long and realize as many facets of it as you like but in the end enlightenment is stage 4.

Stage is 4 is realizing with every cell of your body (getting rid of the ego in every cell of the body/ kundalini process/ burning away the unconscious "healing") that everything is exactly as it should be. You (god) put yourself on this planet to experience every moment as it is and not to prematurely return to god. Realizing god helps you to realize that but it is not enlightenment.

In this model: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_enlightenment

It says enlightenment is: 

An Arahant is free from all of the five lower fetters and the five higher fetters, which are:

6. Craving for prosperity in the material world

7. Craving for existence in the ideal world (heaven)

8. Conceit

9. Restlessness

10. Ignorance

So enlightenment is not realizing infinity but living your live free of the need to change or conceit anything. Which stands in opposition the work @Leo Gura does and I am really curios about how he will solve this one. I struggle with it myself, it destroys me (which is the point).

Edited August 15, 2017 by No-Thing

[Edvard]

@No-Thing But by this you will also die. We need the ego to eat, to put the body out of danger and harm. So the goal then becomes to die, which I guess you at the point of enlightenment would think is fine? And I don't mean physical death, I mean physical death  IDK.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Edvard

[No-Thing]

@Edvard From what I see now (I am not there yet fully) the ego is like a battery that needs to charge itself through validation, fears, wants, desires, cravings, aversions, not accepting the moment, yadda yadda. When the spiritual process starts something changes in the structure of the ego and the battery slowly drains and runs out. This process can take years. in my case it started mentally but slowly became more physical. You of course at some point also realize that there is no difference between mental and physical (only in degree, it is a spectrum).

In this process the ego pulls out all the tricks it has to keep itself alive for a bit longer. One of the tricks is identification with emptiness or space. When that happens (stage 2) you are detached from everything. This detached state can last seconds or even months or years, dependent on how much you like it. At some point you get bored of it or whatever the reason is, I don't know and the process goes on. Then at some peak experience point through either psychedelics, meditation, live events, or just randomly you get infused with the knowing that you are one with everything. That you were there at the big bang, that you and the big bang are one now. Then the ego sees it's opportunity and latches onto that realization and identifies with being god. That can be fun for a while and it helps you to let go of many many fears. 

At this point your ego becomes weaker and weaker (or it get's stronger again because now you think you are the new incarnation of christ).  At this point there is less and less you crave or averse. Thinks you didn't like that need doing, now you just do them because why the fuck not? There is no inner resistance. There is no better or worse. You still have preferences but they don't start an inner dialogue. At this point you also see more and more synchronizities in your life.

You loose all your fears and aversion but you also loose all your dreams and hopes (which is the hard part). So at this point there is no preference between living and dying anymore. You could die today and that would be totally fine because you know death is just another scare tactic that the ego used to keep it's battery going. 

I don't know what happens when the ego-battery finally completely runs out because that didn't happen yet but I guess you then plunge into infinity once more. Some people also report that they see their past lives and take away their fears at their moment of death. 

Then your life reappears and you are back into normality only that your ego will never bother you again. It will arise when it is needed and keeps shut when you don't need it. Your life will be guided by something beyond thought. Thought will still be there but only when it is necessary. 

So yes, at times you will feel like you are actually dying and you will learn to be okay with that and trust that on a deeper level you are always perfectly fine. I had several occasions where my ego (I ) was deeply convinced that I am going to die and I learned to develop the faith to still plunge deeper. On a deeper level though there was a knowing that everything was okey and that my time on this planet is not over yet. 

[Haumea]

Quote

So enlightenment is not realizing infinity but living your live free of the need to change or conceit anything. Which stands in opposition the work @Leo Gura does and I am really curios about how he will solve this one. I struggle with it myself, it destroys me (which is the point).

There's nothing to solve, I think. I agree with you that the 5eo-dmt experience was a Stage 3 "God Consciousness" experience.  The only peril here is that he stabilizes in that stage and believes that's full enlightenment.  Otherwise it wasn't a bad experience to have, it likely accelerated his progress.  

I've had experience with spirit guides on psychedelics (that's of a stage prior to Leo's experience) and it was definitely helpful.

As far as striving, this is natural until you stabilize in the last pre-nonduality stage.  Eventually, you realize it can't be done and let go.  He knows it intellectually already but accepting it takes time.

Quote

Stage is 4 is realizing with every cell of your body (getting rid of the ego in every cell of the body/ kundalini process/ burning away the unconscious "healing") that everything is exactly as it should be.

Yes, no other, no world, no enlightened being, everything is perfect exactly as it is.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Haumea
added paragraph more to the point