Naive Realism And "stuff Behind The Scenes"

[momo]

I watched the video of leo about naive realism several times and i have some questions about some points ! I can understand that there is no matter and we don't perceive like other animals and that our perceptions differ , but what leo means whe he said "when you go to work and turn your back, you think that your house is still there, but it's not" !!!!!!  Whatever reality and my house is made of, how can it disappear when i go to work for example , so in this case i can keep the door open and no thiefs will enter because there is no house ! I know that i have to experience this myself but can someone simplify the idea for me ? thnx !

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, momo said:

Whatever reality and my house is made of, how can it disappear when i go to work for example

How could it not disappear? If it didn't literally disappear, you couldn't go to work, because your consciousness would be populated by "your house". The reason you can't be both at your house and at work is because your consciousness needs to empty itself first. Like an LCD screen, it has a hard time displaying two images at the same time.

This is not a matter for speculation or philosophy. You need to look at your direct experience. Blink your eyes right now and notice that your room disappears. That's what's literally true. Everything else is concept. Your mind fudges literal truth so that you can live in a cushy conceptual matrix. This work is all about stripping down the conceptual matrix to what is literally true.

Don't conflate this with silly expectations of burglars not being able to enter your house. When you're switching paradigms, you have to recontextualize all your old facts about reality. Instead of thinking of reality as a solid physical thing, think of it as a collections of dreams or hallucinations. In a dream, a tiger can eat you, even though both the tiger and your body are imaginary.

Reality is literally no different than a dream. It's just a bit more consistent, clear, and vibrant. There is no "substance" behind the dream. The dream is not taking place anywhere, like in your brain. There is no brain! There is no world. It's just pure dream afloat in nothingness. That's idealism for ya.

[Juan Cruz Giusto]

@Leo Gura  but what is the difference between what you are saying and solipsism. If my mother is in my house, does my house still exists or not? Just because I'm not in there it doesnt mean that it doesn't exist. Furthermore, where is the observer if it's not in my body.. Where is the witness if it's not in my body? 

Why does stuff seems really really consistent even if I'm not there.. Definitely there is a world outside of my perception.. That doesn't mean that something is outside of mind though... 

 

[Leo Gura]

There is no you. There is no observer. There is no witness. There is just the dream. You don't exist even within that dream.

It's much more radical than solipsism. EVEN when you're in your house, it still doesn't exist. The entire dream is non-existent. Even when its right before your eyes. Because the substance of the dream is literally nothing.

This dream we call "reality" has very consistent rules in certain local places. The counter-question for you is: why do you expect dreams to not be consistent? That's your problem right there. You're placing silly expectations upon metaphysics.

Not only isn't there a world outside your perception. There isn't even a you who's perceiving!

You're not thinking about this existentially enough. You're stuck in the naive realist paradigm.

Do some DMT and you'll immediately see where you're wrong. Escaping the illusion is not easy. Your entire life is an absorption into this dream. So you're not likely to see it as a dream unless you make a massive effort.

[Juan Cruz Giusto]

But why does my friends perceive the same thing as I am. Even though it is not the same color, there has to be something that inform us both. Either mine or matter.. There is definitely something outside of my egoic mind. In the absolute sense there is nothing outside of consciousness, but in the relative world there has to be something outside my individual mind. There is stuff independent of my individual mind, even though it don't know what is outside of that, more mind or matter 

[Nahm]

@momo

its a dream.  all awareness is the consciousness itself, the fabric of dreams.  in the illusion, consciousness limits itself, so there's a mouse, and also an Einstein.  Both are consciousness / awareness.  If you and your friend do the things Leo is telling you, the practices, you would both eventually see you are the same dreamer.  It's blissful, but you'll have to trade your very selves for it. 

What makes it awesome, is that the illusion is fubu (for you by you).  Also awesome is that built into your illusion, is a special twist just for you, where you get to start from right Now, with a false premise that reality is real, you're doing the breathing, you're beating your heart, logic is paramount, you are real, imagination is make believe, you actually die one day, you don't have a relationship with reality, and God is seperate and possibly judging you. Good luck!!

[Leo Gura]

@Juan Cruz Giusto 

A) Firstly, become aware that "my friend is seeing stuff" is a concept in YOUR consciousness. This point is so critical.

B) You vs your friend is a conceptual distinction which you created. There is no you or your friend. There never was. You and your friend is actually identical: nothing. In the same way that Superman and Santa Claus are identical: both are fictional pointers which refer to nothing.

C) You're resisting recontextualizing the facts of reality under a new paradigm. When you comprehend that weirdness is relative, you'll understand that there's no way reality cannot be. You're trying to make reality fit your expectations. Consistency between you and your friends perceptions doesn't equal proof of an external world at all. Imagine for a moment that reality automagically renders infinite perspectives simultaneously without any support structures like laws, math, physics, matter, energy, or anything else. It can do that because it's INFINITE! It can do EVERYTHING. It has no limits. When you have no limits, you can literally just manifest spontaneously out of thin air. What you're seeing is what reality is. You cannot ask, "But HOW is it doing it?!" The answer to the how question is: INFINITY. Reality isn't "doing" anything. It's BEing. The nature of BEing is Absolute Infinity.

[momo]

@Leo Guraleo do you think that we are in a simulation/matrix/holographical world ?

Edited July 23, 2017 by momo

[Juan Cruz Giusto]

@Leo Gura I definitely lack an experiential understanding of all of reality and all of my explanations lack personal experience and I accept it.. I just think that my understanding of reality is based on indirect understanding (perception).

When you say it is my consciousness in point A, are you saying that the body is the one who is having the concept, whose consciousness 

We can take Peter Ralston's position that everything is a distinction or we can take Rupert Spira's one that every individual mind is informed by the same infinite consciousness.. 

As I said before, we cans at that everything is consciousness and that is it, because that is the ultimate truth. Reality is what is, and it is it.. There is no more metaphysical explanation to make. 

But if we want to make it metaphysical explanation, our minds are just perceptions and minds are informed by the same infinite consciousness. Read Spira's new book about the nature of consciousness.. We don't what consciousness is though and every explanation it is just more concepts.. I don't really see a point in disscussing this stuff when we could just understand reality in a direct way (enlightenment). It is just more concept. 

[Leo Gura]

23 minutes ago, momo said:

@Leo Guraleo do you think that we are in a simulation/matrix/holographical world ?

Those are all relative concepts, distinctions, and labels, and they come with potentially a lot of baggage. Who knows what you mean when you say "simulation" or "martix"? Do you even know what you mean?

What I've experienced is that reality is an infinite, groundless, hallucination. A dream.

11 minutes ago, Juan Cruz Giusto said:

@Leo Gura

When you say it is my consciousness in point A, are you saying that the body is the one who is having the concept, whose consciousness 

 I don't really see a point in disscussing this stuff when we could just understand reality in a direct way (enlightenment). It is just more concept. 

A) I say "your consciousness" in a proverbial manner. It isn't really yours. It's universal. From your POV it feels like it's yours. Nothing "holds" or owns consciousness. Consciousness is what everything is. There is nothing outside of consciousness, and nothing which isn't consciousness.

B) Of course. Go self-inquire or meditate. No amount of talking will resolve these issues for you. A new level of consciousness is required here.

[momo]

@Leo Gura 1)what do you think about the analogy that our mind decodes/translates the infinite field to see reality as maya like a monitor which displays piece of code as pixels and images ?

2) Why doesn't everybody sees reality as it is, why it has to live in maya ?

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, momo said:

@Leo Gura 1)what do you think about the analogy that our mind decodes/translates the infinite field to see reality as maya like a monitor which displays piece of code as pixels and images ?

2) Why doesn't everybody sees reality as it is, why it has to live in maya ?

1) Mind is also a conceptual creation. There in fact is no mind. You can use whatever analogies you like. But they do not get you closer to the Truth.

2) Absolute Infinity must include all finities. God cannot experience all its vastness without becoming limited. Without a perspective, you cannot feel like a you. Without illusion, nothing can exist. Illusion is the mechanism of creation. You live inside an illusion because without it, you'd just be God (nothing).

Do you want to be God, or do you want to be you? You can't have it both ways. One precludes the other.

[Joseph Maynor]

Watch this video.  I think you will find your answer.  Actual reality only comes to you through direct experience.  An image is real but it is not the thing that it represents.  Looking at your hand and thinking about your hand are two different things.  One is sense one is image. 

What we gotta get clear about is what is real and what is belief.  If you close your eyelids, your house disappears from your senses right?  But you still believe the house exists.  But see, your belief at that point is a concept, not sensed.  That's what it means that your house disappeared.  Technically what disappeared is your visuals of the house.  Your belief that the house is more than that is not in the house but in your head.  And those beliefs may persist when you close your eyes, but your reality of the house, the visuals have vanished.  See the difference here?  What is trying to be shown to you is how much of your reality is actually conceptual instead of literal.  When you become more mindful of this, you can start to see that many beliefs you have about what is real and true are in fact false beliefs.  Your visual of your house is not your concept of your house.  Often times we take the conceptual house and think that that is what is real.  No, technically what is real is your thought as something sensed and the visuals of the house.  The thought-story (the meaning of the thought sensed) is not real, yet that is what unenlightened people take to be most real.  

 

 

Edited July 23, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Samuel Garcia]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You need to look at your direct experience. Blink your eyes right now and notice that your room disappears. That's what's literally true. Everything else is concept.

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Not only isn't there a world outside your perception. There isn't even a you who's perceiving!

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

There is nothing outside of consciousness

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Firstly, become aware that "my friend is seeing stuff" is a concept in YOUR consciousness

Some of the things you're saying are some insights I had on my first trip with shrooms yesterday. During it, I was thinking that there is no other person in the world but me. I realised that me thinking about other people's perception if exactly just thoughts and that the only thing there is my perception. For example I think now there are people typing posts on this topic now but on the trip I would say that the posts are all there are. Moreover, I was laughing a lot because it's so obvious. Very obvious and yet I'm missing it (but now it isn't so obvious after the trip).

So I questioned during the trip ''But how can people interact with me if they such as telling me about their life? Surely there are lives being lived by others but I just don't know it because I'm not conscious of it as I'm not there?'' Like how are people able to share their ideas if there is only me? I then realised when I interact with people that is me. Reality is talking to itself when I talk to others -- because reality can't be any other way. But why did I have all the experiences right from birth and not other ones? Because reality can be no other way. It is as if I realised all the experiences I had were the thing I had been looking for all my life. It is difficult to communicate the feelings I had.

My question: But now I really don't get it -- how are people typing posts and share THEIR ideas and insights if there is only my consciousness? That would mean I am all alone in the world (like said in the loneliness video). But surely just because I don't experience it, that doesn't mean there is more to life than my experience. It was super obvious on my trip but what if I was being delusional then?

 

 

[Joseph Maynor]

Watch this video too:

 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Joseph Maynor