Neti-neti Is Scary: My Senses Are No Longer 'me'

[oysterman]

After an intense meditation session recently, as I was practicing neti-neti by negating everything in my experience, I experienced a disturbing 'zooming-out' of my senses.

 

For the first time in my life, I felt as if my senses (specifically sight and the feeling of the body) were not me. That me was something that observed these senses, and was somehow always there, never moving.

My senses now seem much less real than I originally believed.

 

Now I am plagued by an uncomfortable feeling that I am absolutely alone in the universe. Because everyone that I know (my parents, brother, friends) and every single thing in the reality that I access, and have always accessed, through my senses, has been put into question.

 

It is much more comfortable for me to pretend that everything is still normal, that the old reality is still real, that my senses are intrinsically part of me. But in the back of my mind I cannot forget about how everything now seems so fake.

 

I would like some advice, given that I am trying to become enlightened.

Does this sound like I am going in the right direction with neti-neti, and that I should pursue this phenomenon further? Or does all of this sound like some unnecessary delusion that I am clinging to, that I should also negate?

 

Thank you members of this forum, who may or may not be figments of my imagination.

[WelcometoReality]

@oysterman you are going in the right direction. Go further.

[Principium Nexus]

You doing good, your are on unfamiliar ground thus learning a lot about the nature of reality. That fact that it stuns you means you had a deep realization. 

This insight will be there your whole life, so you better try to understand and work with it. Events like these can be key to initiate the path to further enlightenment

[oysterman]

Thank you.

What is interesting is that I feel like this experience was building up for about a week, inspired by reading The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz. As I was living my daily life I was holding the tentative hypothesis in my head that everything in my current experience is a dream.

That hypothesis, as well as some of the concepts in the book, led to some small conceptual epiphanies regarding how much I take for granted as 'real', which primarily based on early childhood experiences. And that how everything that I do take for granted as real is pretty much arbitrary. And how everything I project onto other people is not real, that I do not have any idea what their perspective on reality is really like or if they themselves are even real.

 

My relationship to myself and to reality has changed (unless I reside in my 'normal' identity). I feel like I think I felt as a baby! Not identified with my visual field or any senses. It's actually very scary for me now but I guess it could be an acquired taste.

I feel like I have two bodies. One in the physical world, and one 'behind it' which never moves position and perceives whatever the human me is doing.

 

Reality now seems more deterministic. All I can do that feels authentic (but at the same time very frightening) is to reside in my 'being' and to allow the human body to do what it wants to do. But I keep forgetting how to reside in 'being'.

[Leo Gura]

@oysterman Hehehe.... well of course! That's what enlightenment is all about. You will cease to exist!

What did you think would happen? Rainbows and butterflies?

The ego is not going to like enlightenment one bit. Luckily, once it's out of the way, everything is great.

[Principium Nexus]

@oysterman I want to add that this are just the first few days you experience this, so the detached feeling is more profound now. In the future you might be able to conciously shift between being "fully" in your body and being an observer. If you learn to conciously enter your bodily sensations you will perceive them in an heightened state. You could see it as calibrating a sensor to a black background or void of stimuli.

It's a very good exercise to get full control of you minds focus. Basically you opened a hidden box and should learn to live with the insight you got

[Ananta]

9 hours ago, oysterman said:

That me was something that observed these senses, and was somehow always there, never moving.

Mind blowing when it first happens, isn't it? 

9 hours ago, oysterman said:

Now I am plagued by an uncomfortable feeling that I am absolutely alone in the universe.

You are alone, but it's the ego that's come back and is stating it's uncomfortable. Not you, witnessing awareness.  You have just re-identified with it (ego), whereas during your experience you had un-identified with it.

9 hours ago, oysterman said:

But in the back of my mind I cannot forget about how everything now seems so fake.

 

From the absolute perspective, it is "ultimately" an illusion, but experienced none the less.

So, on one hand, you have the knowledge you've gained (and continue to gain), which will wipe away the ignorance, of your true nature/identity, so you gain clarity.

On the other hand, you continue to live as the apparent person you "appear" to be, until the death of the body. 

Simultaneously holding both perspectives is key to assimilation while discriminating which is real and which is only apparent.

 

Edited July 10, 2017 by Anna1

[ajasatya]

9 hours ago, oysterman said:

I would like some advice, given that I am trying to become enlightened.

Does this sound like I am going in the right direction with neti-neti, and that I should pursue this phenomenon further? Or does all of this sound like some unnecessary delusion that I am clinging to, that I should also negate?

hi. there's no ultimate authority other than intuition and direct experience. these words on the screen are made out of nothingness and there's nobody actually reading them. they're just floating in the field of awareness.

what is the fundamental truth behind words?

be eternally free.

 

[ansimuz]

@oysterman to me it sounds like you are getting enlightened 

[WelcometoReality]

 

22 hours ago, oysterman said:

What is interesting is that I feel like this experience was building up for about a week, inspired by reading The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz. As I was living my daily life I was holding the tentative hypothesis in my head that everything in my current experience is a dream.

That hypothesis, as well as some of the concepts in the book, led to some small conceptual epiphanies regarding how much I take for granted as 'real', which primarily based on early childhood experiences. And that how everything that I do take for granted as real is pretty much arbitrary. And how everything I project onto other people is not real, that I do not have any idea what their perspective on reality is really like or if they themselves are even real.

Careful. Mind really likes to grasp these experiences and create stories around them. Best to see them for what they are. A story.

22 hours ago, oysterman said:

Reality now seems more deterministic. All I can do that feels authentic (but at the same time very frightening) is to reside in my 'being' and to allow the human body to do what it wants to do. But I keep forgetting how to reside in 'being'.

It's all new to you so of course it is frightening, no need to worry. You will get accostumed to it eventually.

And about the "forgetting" part. It's good to have daily meditation practice to "ground" yourself in 'being'. Preferebly in the morning. 20 minutes or so is enough. The pendulum between the personal state and the non-personal state is totally normal. Just let it happen.

[Joseph Maynor]

Watch these two videos now

 

Edited July 11, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[oysterman]

Hi all, thanks for the amazing advice. This is a long post, sorry if it is a little jumbled but I have a lot of questions.

Just for context, I have meditated daily for two years, mostly 1 hour SDS (but less in the past 2 months). I have probably watched most of Leo's videos multiple times and have studied several books about enlightenment (without instilling any regular, formal self-inquiry practice). I've resumed doing 1 hour SDS sits every day since the experience which has been helpful. Although it sort of feels like I'm meditating throughout the day now. I can lose mindfulness during conversations and repetitive actions, but would say that since the experience I am now in a meditative state for 25-30% of my non-meditating day (compared to a usual ~1%).

 

I've had a weird day today. Here's what I wrote earlier after contemplating existence whilst eating lunch:

"Whaaaaaaaaat the fuuuuuuuck. Everything is just my senses.
Everything I used to believe in is a construct.
I am typing right now within senses (sight and vision). There is nothing behind my phone screen because it is not visible. When I move the phone out of the way, the table that was 'behind it' comes into existence because I can then see it.

I still can clearly feel a sense of 'self', but there is also a shadow now alongside it that I can access if I concentrate, which is kinda the 'base'. It is like the canvas upon which my senses are 'painted'. And that is all there is. None of that bullshit of what people think of me, my maps of reality, etc is actually REAL. Wtf.

I feel like I'm tripping all the time. And if I reside in the insight, everything feels deterministic. I can just relax and enjoy the sensation of this human body typing merrily away into the phone. I feel especially carefree."

 

The above is accurate to how I feel and think about this right now. Please pick apart any bullshit ideas and concepts that I am putting onto the situation.

P.S. I feel invincible to dodgy ego stuff because I feel like I can just zoom out, ground myself in being and then it becomes a non-issue.

P.P.S. What could this experience be referred to as? Some of you are alluding to enlightenment. Correct me if I'm wrong, but surely it aint... more like an awakening? An epiphany on the path to enlightenment? Seeing the hairs on the tail of the ox? Idk. Leo's 'enlightenment experience' in that video left him in tears and was very non-dual. This just seems very calm, uncomfortable, a bit mad. I'm not aware of anything along the lines of non-duality per se.

[Ananta]

5 hours ago, oysterman said:

Although it sort of feels like I'm meditating throughout the day now. I can lose mindfulness during conversations and repetitive actions, but would say that since the experience I am now in a meditative state for 25-30% of my non-meditating day (compared to a usual ~1%).

 

You definitely want to be mindful throughout the day, be in the place of seeing from "being" as often as you can. Thats where you will catch unconsciousnes mental tendencies arising in the mind, through your interactions regarding situations, events, people and experience in general. However, thought will also be needed throughout the day, that's a given, just pull back attention from it as often as possible.

5 hours ago, oysterman said:

"Whaaaaaaaaat the fuuuuuuuck. Everything is just my senses.

First off....lol.  

Second, everything is senses...but, even "subtler" then that is ...thought.

So, when doing Self inquiry don't stop at the senses (which you may already know). The trickiest is the mind/thought. The mind interprets the senses through thinking. 

5 hours ago, oysterman said:

And that is all there is. None of that bullshit of what people think of me, my maps of reality, etc is actually REAL. Wtf.

Right , it's "apparently" real.

5 hours ago, oysterman said:

P.S. I feel invincible to dodgy ego stuff because I feel like I can just zoom out, ground myself in being and then it becomes a non-issue.

I'll warn you, this may not last, but it may. Depends upon many things, but one hurdle is over coming ingrained mental tendencies (AKA-conditioning), they're a bitch! Another is the belief that you are the body/mind, therefore ego. Negation/tracendence of ego is the goal....not destruction. I know many have a different view...that's okay. Remember ego is just the "I-thought", how can you destroy a thought? You cant. You see its unreality.

5 hours ago, oysterman said:

P.S. What could this experience be referred to as? Some of you are alluding to enlightenment. Correct me if I'm wrong, but surely it aint... more like an awakening?

It's an awakening. A "seeing" of your true nature (being, awareness, consciousness). There is further to go, many more insights/epiphanies/realizations to be had, before it could be called enlightenment. Many have preconceived notions of enlightenment, that aren't enlightenment at all. Don't let ego co-opt this seeing to think "it" is enlightened. You've seen "it" (ego) is only "apparently" real, right? ...hint, hint

 

5 hours ago, oysterman said:

I'm not aware of anything along the lines of non-duality per se.

That's another reason it's not yet a complete seeing. However, the first stage is the separation of you, awareness, from the apparent "objects". Stay with this as long as you need to...get clear on it.

The "sign post" that you will need to investigate further  (in the other direction) or your just deluding yourself, you'll say something along the lines of, "I don't exist". This is the ego trying to convince itself that it doesn't exist. It never works and is a trap. I went through that phase....that's how I know.

Of course we exist, we experience ourself "existing" every day. It's just that "ultimately" it's illusion from the greater perspective. I frequently want to clunk people over the head with a brick when they say it, just to ask, "do you exist now?"

Anyways, you're doing great! 

Edited July 12, 2017 by Anna1

[oysterman]

@Anna1 Thank you!

 

Whenever I feel in to the experience of 'being' that I am talking about, I inevitably just burst out laughing. Like a madman. That I never realised this before and used to take it so seriously.

Somehow it is so funny. Just wait a minute, WHAT IS IT ALL MADE OF? Where did it all come from? That which I see and hear and feel?

It all used to make perfect sense, before I got a real grip on questioning it. I had this mental map of the world around me and the universe and the neurones firing in my brain which all nicely explained it away.

 

I am experiencing a large degree of carelessness now. I used to care a lot more about bothering people, about doing everything perfectly, but now I can let things slide for once which is nice. Could go too far the other way but I should balance out eventually.

[Ananta]

11 hours ago, oysterman said:

Whenever I feel in to the experience of 'being' that I am talking about, I inevitably just burst out laughing. Like a madman. That I never realised this before and used to take it so seriously.

You've realized the cosmic joke! 

 

11 hours ago, oysterman said:

Somehow it is so funny. Just wait a minute, WHAT IS IT ALL MADE OF? Where did it all come from? That which I see and hear and feel?

It is funny!..then it just is.

What is all of this? From my point of view (and Vedanta), it's all made of/created out of the substance-less substance which is you, pure awareness. How this is so, gets a bit tricky and too lengthy to write in a post. It's not something neo-advaita is going to explain to you. They just dismiss the world as not existing and call it a day. 

Have you heard of the wave and the ocean analogy? The ocean is you, pure awareness. The individual waves are "apparent" objects within and created from the ocean. Is the wave different then the ocean other then in appearance? No, they are both water.

Does the wave depend upon the ocean for its apparent existence? Yes. Does the ocean depend upon the wave for its existence? No. They are one, water, there is no difference,  therefore non-dual. There is no seperation between the ocean and the wave.

However, nondifference (nonduality) does not means sameness. From the Self's point of view (pure awareness), there is no difference, but from the person's perspective (reflected awareness), there is difference. As there apparently appears to be duality. One is real (Satya), the other is just an appearance (Mithya-illusion). It exists, but isn't real.

All analogies eventially break down as they are just pointers.

Anyways, it was learning Vedanta from James Swartz and Ted Schmidt that finally answered my questions. The teaching needs to be unfolded in a certain way to make sense. James has a full 16 part Satsang series on youtube. He also has a website with tons of written email Satsangs, if you're interested. 

I've been emailing Ted for about 18 months with my questions, ect, but they do want you to have at least the basics of Vedanta before you email them. If that's something anyone is interested in.

 

Edited July 12, 2017 by Anna1

[oysterman]

@Anna1 I like that analogy.

I have had a less mind bending day today.

I have found it more difficult to 'remember' how to access the state of awareness, but when I do 'access it' it is less strange than before.

It reminds me of my childhood. I think I must have accessed this state a lot in the early days, and then learnt to mask it and get lost in ENDLESS ENDLESS EEEEEENDLESS stories. Like a really long, seemingly coherent dream.

[Ananta]

1 hour ago, oysterman said:

I like that analogy.

Good, here's another, about a gold ring. Say gold was you, awareness. Gold is gold regardless of what shape or form it takes, right?

So, gold is shaped into a ring. Is it a ring or is it gold? From first glance someone may say, it's definately a ring, not noticing what it's made of.  It's actually just "appearing" as a ring, but tomorrow could be melted down to liquid. The gold remains the same, only the shape it "appears as" has changed. So, gold is both the substance and whatever shape the substance appears as... 

There's also the clay and pot analogy, but it basically the same as the gold ring analogy.

1 hour ago, oysterman said:

I have found it more difficult to 'remember' how to access the state of awareness, but when I do 'access it' it is less strange than before.

Yes, it was an awakening "experience" and all experience ends eventually. That's why Vedanta advocates Self-knowledge (Self with a capital S means Brahman/awareness). Once the knowledge is "firm" it can not be negated. Then, there's a shift in identification.

 

1 hour ago, oysterman said:

reminds me of my childhood. I think I must have accessed this state a lot in the early days, and then learnt to mask it and get lost in ENDLESS ENDLESS EEEEEENDLESS stories. Like a really long, seemingly coherent dream.

Yep, that's basically how we become deluded, endless stories. It's part of the game. Cover ourselves up and play hide and seek. Awakening glimpses are like playing peek-a-boo.

 

Edited July 13, 2017 by Anna1