When To Be Honest?

[OnceMore]

I'm about 100 pages in to the book Radical Honesty, and it is quite a shocking book. Although the author hasn't explicitly told me, at this point, that the way to go about this is to be honest all of the time. Maybe he will later on, but for now I want to ask some questions for you all and give my thoughts. 

So, are we meant to be honest all of the time, as if we were children again? Surely the author can't possibly mean that a person should be honest all the time for them to live the most creative and fulfilling life possible for them. 

And in this case, 'honesty' means we correctly convey the facts of our lives and our feelings of them, regardless of how we make the other person feel. [I'm unsure on this definition, so someone correct me if you've read this book]

So if you're friend asks if she looks fat in that dress, and you know she does, we're meant to say "Yes, you look fat in that dress". I mean, really?! How is this helping anything by being honest? All that will happen is that the night out in the town will be ruined for her because now she knows she looks fat in that dress or any other dress, and perhaps the friendship will derail, or all the other friends who have been asked this question will turn against you. This tiny situation can turn in to one big mess, just by being honest. 

And how can we be honest in a business setting? When networking with new people, for example. Lies are like the bread and butter in this setting because everyone is so desperate to get a connection to get ahead in their careers. 

Or being honest with you boss?! Holy shit. 

Or if someone is in passing, and just asks "how are you?" but you know they're just making conversation and want to get on with their life, am I meant to be truthful here and answer I'm doing bad if I'm actually doing bad? Isn't this just a waste of both of our time by being honest in this situation? They don't actually care. And I don't care either. 

So, How can an adult person tell the truth all of the time?

[Erlend K]

"So, are we meant to be honest all of the time, as if we were children again? Surely the author can't possibly mean that a person should be honest all the time for them to live the most creative and fulfilling life possible for them."

I'm pretty sure that is exactly the advice Blanton is giving - a really poor advice imo. I agree with him that most of us would benefit from opening up and saying what we think a bit more, but Blanton's attitude that honesty, the way he defines it, should trump any other value is not a good idea. Real life is too complex for "Always do X" maxims to be useful. IN real life situations the values of openness/honestly has to constantly be balanced against concern for others  feelings, the health of your social/profession relationships, the effect on your career etc. True, some times frankness or constructive criticism can course conflict and hurt feelings in the short term, but be healthy in the long term - but to claim that this is true 100 % of the time seems clearly wrong.

I think a more practical philosophy of honesty than "Radical Honesty" is the Buddhist concept of "Wise speech"/"Right speech".

[Markus]

@OnceMore Be honest when it's relevant to the situation. Telling "Your ass looks fat and saggy." to someone just because that thought came up is pointless, so there's my disagreement with Blanton. He's not exactly an enlightened person, so Radical Honesty surely ain't a cure-all idea. But besides that, yes, sure it's fucking shocking. That's the point.

The fat dress example. You can be sensitive and compassionate to her but what good does lying do her? Anyone who would ask whether they look fat in the first place suspects the answer deep down, they only ask to delude themselves and they rely on people sugarcoating stuff. Trust me, one day waking up from a delusion hurts way more when you've been entertaining it for an indefinite time. People turning against you? What does them doing so say about them? Why would you want to associate with people who don't like the authentic you? It's stupid. Be wise with this.

As for business and work-related stuff, first of all, the mind always exaggerates the potential negative consequences of being honest. And secondly a job where you have to kiss other people's ass will never truly fulfill you anyways. You want to reach a career situation where you don't have to answer to unconscious people.

The point of being honest and authentic is that it's one of the most fulfilling things you can do. Plus it gives you as well as others the opportunity to be more effective at what you do. Being inauthentic, lying, manipulative, deceptive leads to subtle suffering that considering how often you do these things will snowball. When you're not honest with yourself, you can't change. When you're not honest with others, you deny them the possibility to take responsibility for their own lives and act based on accurate information. How you wanna live is completely your choice. All I'm saying is it has consequences.

 

[Visitor]

Once other people are involved ethics comes into play with honesty. There is a famous ethical example of this, where nuns were hiding Jewish children in a convent and a Nazi platoon leader asked the head nun if any Jewish children were in the convent. To be honest meant the lives of the children, to be dishonest meant the possible life and/soul of the nun.

However, we can be totally honest about ourselves to others, if you value your truth above pride and vanity.

[Leo Gura]

@OnceMore The point is to show you how dishonest you actually are most of the time. That it horrifies you, should give you a good idea how much growing up you still have to do. Notice the horror as you see that your entire lifestyle is sustained by hundreds of lies every day. And then you wonder why you're not happy? Well, that's one big reason.

Figuring out how to live an honest life is no easy thing. It might mean radically changing things. Which is of course why you see the technique as so impractical. Your whole lifestyle was architected as a house of cards. Which are glued together with lies. So of course you will feel extremely threatened when someone suggests taking your glue gun away.

It IS a very difficult technique to execute for the average Western lifestyle. Because everything from our families, to our marriages, to our careers, is built on lies.

Imagine what your life would have to be like, if you made a vow to never tell another lie again in your life? It's a very illuminating thought-experiment. Now realize, some people ACTUALLY life that way. For real. Do you think they are happy or unhappy people?

[askdfjnak]

On 09/07/2017 at 2:33 AM, OnceMore said:

So, How can an adult person tell the truth all of the time?

Well, you can't really tell the truth all the time, even if we take your definition of honesty (quoted below) because you eventually run into a conundrum.
 

On 09/07/2017 at 2:33 AM, OnceMore said:

And in this case, 'honesty' means we correctly convey the facts of our lives and our feelings of them, regardless of how we make the other person feel. [I'm unsure on this definition, so someone correct me if you've read this book]

 

You could begin walking around calling out bullshit 24/7 like Dr House:

 

 

… but after doing that for a while you’d have to admit to yourself that “being honest” is just another pretence that you’ve adopted and that it’s also a lie on a subtle level.

 

The more truthful you become the less you’ll have to say, generally.

Eventually you get to the point where you can just go along with the charades, but you won’t suffer any of it.
That then leaves you with A TON of free energy to be creative, fulfilled etc..

I think that's what the author is trying to explain.

[Nahm]

@OnceMore Honestly is the only way to go within. Learn how to be honest and positively effect others at the same time. It's not one or the other. You'll notice that if someone else is putt off by it, it's because they are intimidated that you have surpassed them noticeably in your self honesty.  Being honest with your self leads to becoming a better and more influential person. It a rocky road at first. 

[Beyond Words]

@Leo Gura

Doesn't it make sense to lie (in the forms that are defined in Radical Honesty) to build monetary wealth that is necessary to build a business around a life purpose (recall your path of IM to then building Actualized.org)?

Try being 100% truthful during an important business negotiation while the other party will inevitably lie as much as they need to benefit their side.

You'll be missing out on a ton of money that would take you a decade to make while the liar will make the same amount in a year (and will have 9 years for self-actualization).

The system leads people to deceitful endeavors.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Beyond Words

[Leo Gura]

@Beyond Words It all depends on your values and level of consciousness. At low levels of consciousness it of course makes sense to lie and manipulate and use force. At higher levels of consciousness it makes less and less and less sense.

As the Buddha supposedly said, dust thrown into the wind comes back in your face.

You are free to lie, manipulate, and even kill. But all your actions have consequences.

It's a lot easier to run a low consciousness business than a high consciousness business. That's for sure. Which is perhaps why most spiritually accomplished folks aren't billionaires. Ruthlessness and selfishness is a virtue in our current business world.

When I did IM, I did what I did because my level of consciousness was where it was at that time. And I did pay a price for it psychologically, spiritually, and even in terms of my physical health.

[ChimpBrain]

Try "Lying" by Sam Harris instead, it's a far better book on the topic of honesty. 

[Samuel Garcia]

On 10/07/2017 at 9:54 AM, askdfjnak said:

… but after doing that for a while you’d have to admit to yourself that “being honest” is just another pretence that you’ve adopted and that it’s also a lie on a subtle level.

Can you please explain why going around being honest is another lie? How is being like that another pretence?

[Dizzy]

On 7/8/2017 at 1:33 PM, OnceMore said:

 

Or being honest with you boss?! Holy shit. 

Or if someone is in passing, and just asks "how are you?" but you know they're just making conversation and want to get on with their life, am I meant to be truthful here and answer I'm doing bad if I'm actually doing bad? Isn't this just a waste of both of our time by being honest in this situation? They don't actually care. And I don't care either. 

So, How can an adult person tell the truth all of the time?

I had serious consequences for being honest with my boss and telling my true Truth! For being honest, I was called a liar and irresponsible. Eventually the situation turned around as I kept my honesty, she did apologize to me and all is well now. 

 

As to a stranger passing by, on the beginning of my process of "no more masks and lies" I would find hard to show anything but a polite happy face. Today, I am showing what I am. It dosent matter if anyone will like or not, agree or disagree. In the end, they can have any perspective they want to have, and that will not affect my being.  To be clear, as soon as I started dropping the mask I was also increasing my awareness, doing so I am much more peaceful today then I was when I was pretending something and holding up a mask. 

But yes, I deeply realize that are tons of consequences of it. 

Especially for people that loves me and expect things from me, I realized the more I tell them my truth, the more I hurt them and consequently (a few times) I hurt myself too. " Why did I tell the truth if this caused so much pain? I should just have lied and put on the mask". I am learning to make peace with the truth - pain situation. The truth can hurt and be painful, yet once the REAL TRUTH is said, it won't matter, as I will find love within the pain.  

Wish you love and light on your journey @OnceMore 

 

[Markus]

19 hours ago, ChimpBrain said:

Try "Lying" by Sam Harris instead, it's a far better book on the topic of honesty. 

This too. True, Sam is into moralizing but he makes a compelling case for honesty. 

[askdfjnak]

7 hours ago, Samuel Garcia said:

Can you please explain why going around being honest is another lie? How is being like that another pretence?

I can try I guess.

Suppose you went to bed tonight and you decided that this was the last day you ever told a lie. Tomorrow when you wake up you are going to tell nothing but the truth and that’s how you’re going to live from now on.

The next morning you get up and you are now living with the pretence of honesty; you’re living in the present with an identity you constructed in the past.
You spend your days walking around telling the truth, and it’s great!
You purge huge chunks of identity that can’t survive in the light of your new-found honesty.
You piss off most of the people around you, because most of their identities can’t survive in the light of your honesty.

Eventually you find yourself alone and your honesty becomes self-reflective. Who is so honest?

The identity you made in the past. And that identity is a lie, it doesn’t exist.

This is not too dissimilar to true vs false skepticism. When you become skeptical of your own skepticism you reach a stalemate. When you become honest about your own honesty you also reach a stalemate.

 

If you were truly honest you’d die …

 

 

… literally.

 

So, there’s no such thing as an honest person. It’s a lie.

Here are some paradoxical questions:

If I told you I was a liar wouldn’t that make me honest?

What if I revealed truth using lies?

[Thinh]

Wow, same problem with me. Every time, when there's a thing that require my opinion, it was like if I lie things will be fine but I will feel uncomfortable, and if I tell the truth, things fucked up.

[Epiphany_Inspired]

My first instinct was to answer "ALWAYS"....but...then the ego sneaks in....and so I'll say "almost always" for now....when the truth is "dangerous" such as: you would be badly/ physically harmed if people knew your sexual orientation/ spiritual beliefs etc in a given situation...or, if in telling the truth, harm would come to another, even emotional harm (if it's significant)....perhaps those are the exceptions...or at least seem like they should be exceptions at my level of consciousness....