Do Not Mix Practices?!?

[Adam M]

Just returned from my vipassana retreat today, probably did about 80 hours of meditation and I got some good insights about life.

While talking to the teacher, I asked him about trying other practices...

For the last 6 months I've been doing only vipassana meditation (similar to noting practice) for 2 hours daily and this was my second retreat.

Basically my teacher said that you don't need to do any other practices, Vipassana is all you need really .

After 10 minutes of respectful debate, I asked him about concentration, self-inquiry, visualization, etc.  and he still told me that I should not mix practices.  

I told him that I wanted to try many different practices and that "I don't want to marry the first woman I fall in love with" but he just again said that Vipassana is a great practice and there is no need to do other practices.

I was very confused after this conversation because everyone on actuaized.org practices a variety of meditations and this contradicts my meditation teacher's view.

My teacher has practiced meditation for 10 years and was trained as a vipassana teacher in Thailand.

Many monks spend 70 years with only one practice and they are extremely fulfilled so why should we have to do self inquiry and do nothing and mindful labelling etc...

We concluded our disagreement with him saying "You can do whatever you want but don't blame me and I told you that you don't have to mix practices."  This implies that he thinks that mixing practices may harm me/lead me off my path.

 

Confused. Confused. Confused.

 

Is my teacher being dogmatic (probably a little bit)?  The way he speaks leads me to think that maybe he's onto something.  Should I do only vipassana for the rest of my life?  I'm probably going to dabble in other practices before I decide but is it beneficial to "get married" to one practice?

 

An example of someone that I know that uses many different practices is Shinzen Young

 

P.S. My teacher also said that you can't attain full enlightenment unless you are an ordained monk...Basically he explained that Buddhism has 4 or 5 main levels of enlightenment and the deepest ones can only be attained through a monastic lifestyle and that those people who claim to be enlightened but are not monks are likely at a lower level of enlightenment.

 

What do you think about mixing practices? Is it okay or do they interfere with each other?  Why do I need to do many practices when I can just stick to one?

 

Thanks

[Max_V]

Well that's his point of view. You don't have to specifically do what anyone says. Find it out for yourself, ask yourself what feels good and what doesn't.

I have found with my time at a zen meditation centre that some  teachers there cling very much to their own type of practise. My teacher even said that mindfulness is only for people who have had a hard time and just need to relax. This makes me think that he did  not look into it and makes basic assumptions. That's fine though, I'm sure if he knew what mindfulness is about, he would see that it is quite beneficial.

Follow your intuition. That doesn't mean you should never trust what anyone says. You can decide to take the advice, do something with it or not. It's your path, you make the rules

[Arkandeus]

your teacher is talking to you about his reality, in his reality he doesn't need anything other then vipassana, and that in itself is the truth.  
for him , no other practices are needed, he's not lying to you.  
this is the thing about people being mirrors, he can't help but see himself in you, so of course he will tell you the same, he will tell you that you only need vipassana.  

and you seeing your reflection in him, you don't mind believing that he's right because he's your teacher.  
truth is that there are infinite ways to enlightenment, limitation does not exist
so first step is, there is no best step, second step is, you're free to chose the steps you like to take to enlightenment
you could get enlightened doing vipassana one day, then something else the next day, then something new...you can go around if you want.  
enlightenment is about being, not doing, and you are always in a state of being, no matter what you do, get better at being, not doing 
being is being yourself, chose something because you like it personally, not because of any ''logical benefit'', which is doing, to do something because it seems logical and it would bring result is the opposite being, that is doing
to be, is to do something because it feels fulfilling in the moment itself,regardless of the result, the result does not exist,the plan does not exist  
how can you do something you didn't plan or think about it in your mind? you can't,doing implies a plan
 then anything you're actually doing without the plan is being 

is life really as limited that everyone would have to do the exact same thing as your teacher in order to enlighten? life is infinity

Edited July 6, 2017 by Arkandeus

[Adam M]

@Arkandeus Wow thanks dude, I really started to get insight into the magic of being during and after my retreat.  I understand what you mean about him occupying his own reality and mirroring.  I knew that this was the case but I was just worried about messing up my practice.  Now I understand that most meditation practices are basically different ways of accomplishing the same thing, just being.  I got a taste of what you are talking about this weekend, when I got back from my retreat I indulged in some food and the internet for a few hours and afterwards I still felt hollow.  However, when I was finished I sat down for a few minutes to be mindful and I felt much better.  The present moment is full and complete as long as you are mindful enough to acknowledge it.  Thanks man! Good luck with your practice!

[Adam M]

@Max_V You're right.  What you're saying makes me feel much lighter, thanks.  My intuition tells me to try other practices and be mindful.  When you are in the present moment you always know what is the right decision to make, even if the decision might be no decision for the time being.

[Azrael]

15 hours ago, Adam M said:

What do you think about mixing practices? Is it okay or do they interfere with each other?

I think your teacher has a point there. But it needs to be explained. As you practice one meditation technique it will unfold with time. Meaning that it'll slowly open itself up like a flower and through that process you'll experience different phases of the technique that eventually lead to a final state. Complete non-interference because of the dissolution of you and your environment. Or something like that.

To get the development going it will probably help to stick to one routine and let it do its thing. And if you've found such a routine like vipassana, you may want to stick to that. You may change if you like. Especially in the beginning I think its good to try a lot of stuff until eventually you find your way to do it and then stick to that mostly.

I will always sing my song about SDS + "Do Nothing" cuz I'm a big groupie of that routine plus the whole Taoist / Zen way of living. But that's simply because my character resonates with that and because when I found that I fell in love. It's no better or worse then all of the stuff IMO. It penetrates a certain aspect but leaves out others.

So to conclude, try a lot of stuff and then naturally you'll find something that you love and stick to. And if this changes after two years you haven't found the right thing or your development led you to something different. You'll (hopefully) meditate for the rest of your life. That means finding the right set of technique in the first few years is completely fine.

Here's a metaphor that sums it up. "The one who is able to do a lot, will with time be a good practitioner of his many things. The one who is able to do one thing, will with time be a master of that one thing."

But you only end up with one good thing if you've tried prior to that a lot of stuff and are able to make a good decision.

[Preetom]

@Adam M I heard a Buddhist teacher telling that there are total 52 stages of Enlightenment. And "Sankyamuni Buddha" or Shiddharta Gautama is the only person from whole humankind to touch upon the 52nd stage. I don't claim to know anything about these things. Just sharing what I heard directly.

And about practice, I would say like anything else in life, there is a magic/breakthrough that happens only when you stick with a particular routine. There are tons of practice routines. They all are in the horizontal dimension. But You only get further and further access to the vertical dimension (DEPTH) when you select one method and stick with it. Hope that gives you some new ideas to make a decision. There is a great post regarding ten stages of meditation in this forum. It says basically the same thing.

As for me, I've decided to acquire a good deal of mastery in four techniques separately. Concentration, True Meditation(Do Nothing), Inquiry and Contemplation. Then they can work on me harmoniously.

[Adam M]

@Azrael I think you're right.  I think the mastery aspect will really supercharge my meditation results in the long term by sticking with one practice.  I will definitely experiment with other practices too.  However, I wonder if I choose vipassana as my main practice, would it be better do to 2 hours of vipassana or 1 hour of vipassana and 1 hour of contemplation.  Maybe I have the wrong mindset about how meditation works but I'm confused about whether mastery in one practice is more beneficial than competence in many practices...my intuition tells me that mastery in one practice is probably the best, especially a beautiful practice like vipassana@Preetom

[ajasatya]

the teacher's point was proved here:

16 hours ago, Adam M said:

Confused. Confused. Confused.

you don't have enough maturity to mix spiritual paths on your own way yet. you're just feeding your monkey mind.

instead, practice and master one technique for your own sake. this decision requires a sip of humility, which can be quite hard at the moment.

[Gabriel Antonio]

@Azrael Thank you for sharing your experience! 

[Leo Gura]

Of course, that's what almost all schools will tell you: We are the best, ignore everyone else.

Of course mixing practice is more challenging than blindly doing one practice.

But the fact is, if you ask most people at a Vipassana retreat what enlightenment is, they won't even be able to tell you. And some of them have been doing Vipassana for 20 years!

Vipassana is a great practice, but it is weak without self-inquiry.

[Sri McDonald Trump Maharaj]

I did the same thing that you are currently doing. Everyone tends to be so obsessed with understanding this thing intellectually, getting personally involved in the process and stuff like that. Developing this seeking attitude on the path has a tendency to make us forget what is already here.  Luckily a teacher gave me the same advice you have gotten and I took it. Thank God!  

[Visionary]

Maybe he tried to show you WHY people are trying out too much new things. That they maybe find it boring and seek stimulation. Through multiple exercises they keep it fun. But that's me projecting me on someone else. I probably do this sometimes myself.

[Adam M]

My teacher's teacher is this old monk Ajahn Tong.  Apparently he has been in robes since he was very young (now he's 91).  

I told my teacher that I wanted to try other practices so that I can get a broader understanding of the world.

He replied by saying that after a certain point, you will just understand all other practices without needing to do them.  He used the example that a monk who has meditated with vipassana for 20 years understands the yoga of the kriya yogis "they don't disagree."  

I said that you can only understand from a buddhist perspective/paradigm and that you would have to move into a different perspective to truly understand it.

He just said that it is difficult to explain to me and that he doesn't want to tell me too much because it will not serve me.

 

He's probably right...it's probably just all mental masterbation and monkey mind...I will still try to explore multiple perspectives while also valuing mastery in one practice.

 

Thanks guys for all your replies, you have all truly helped me and probably helped others too

 

Ajahn Tong:  His teacher's teacher revived vipassana meditation that the Buddha taught and spread it throughout the world.

Checkout his bio, its very inspiring, includes of stories of Ajaan Tong walking/running 9km to study the Dhamma every day at 11 yrs old.

Bio: https://www.sirimangalo.org/bio/

"Why should we be mindful? The Four Foundations of Mindfulness are a device that stops evil, stops bad deeds, stops defilement. 'Sati nivaranam settham' – Mindfulness is an exceptional preventer (of evil states). During the time when we are mindful, evil won't enter in to reach our hearts. We will have pure hearts always. "It is like dark and shining light. Mindfulness is a shining light; all defilements, all evil states, are like darkness. When the bright light shines, the darkness disappears.

For this reason, we should be mindful at all times – our mind will be bright, clean and peaceful all of the time."

 - Most Ven. Phra Dhammamangalajaan Vi. (Ajaan Tong)

Edited July 7, 2017 by Adam M
added Ajaan Tong's bio

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Adam M said:

a monk who has meditated with vipassana for 20 years understands the yoga of the kriya yogis "they don't disagree."

That's a big maybe.

Maybe. But often not.

I've had deeply enlightened masters tell me that yoga is a bunch of bullshit, and that yogis are not enlightened.

Of course after enlightenment you don't need to go back and do other kinds of techniques. That's not the issue. The issue is, will Vipassana actually trigger enlightenment in you? That's a big maybe. The dishonesty of these Buddhists is that they don't admit this. They pretend that it works for everyone. Obviously not, since so few of them are actually enlightened.

Once you admit that a technique doesn't necessarily work for all people. Then you have to admit that it is improper to tell people to only use your technique/school. Because that assumes you know what will and won't work for them. Which is just arrogance and can be very misleading.

Everyone has to find their own way. And you cannot predict ahead of time what your way will be. That is why the spiritual path is so tricky. People keep trying to sell you their way rather than genuinely wanting to help you with yours.

[Adam M]

@Leo Gura Thanks Leo.  I guess that each meditation school is just a system and it has to hold certain beliefs for it to function in the way that it does.

I've learned that it's important to remember that even those who diligently practice training the mind can still fall into certain mind-traps.

[Leo Gura]

@Adam M The spiritual marketplace is subject to forces of self-survival, just like all other marketplaces. Even more so when money tends to be eschewed. The currency then becomes occupying people's mind-space. If you're a spiritual school with no mind-space occupied, you're extinct. It is suicidal for a school to tell you explore other schools. It would be like your wife saying, "Sure, honey, go ahead and sleep around with other women. I don't mind."

Think about it.

[Prabhaker]

On 7/6/2017 at 5:00 AM, Adam M said:

Basically my teacher said that you don't need to do any other practices, Vipassana is all you need really .

Latihan cannot bring the great awakening. It became fashionable in the West and then disappeared completely, because it created many people who had to be put into mental asylums – for the simple reason that it has no stop built into the process.

Once you start Latihan you are overtaken by the process of catharsis, and it goes on and on and you don’t know what to do. You are almost without any control. But Dynamic Meditation I have divided into different sections. Latihan has to be done alone; Dynamic Meditation has to be done under instruction. Then once you have learned it you can do it alone. Under instruction, after each ten minutes, the process can be changed. So you are always in control. It never becomes so big as to take all control into its own hands.

These devices are needed just to clear the rubbish that Christianity has created, and to bring you to a state of naturalness, simplicity ... And from there the only way is witnessing, which is called, by Buddha, Vipassana. Vipassana means ‘looking at’.

If you want to do Vipassana, or any silent meditation, Dynamic Meditation becomes absolutely essential, because Christianity having poisoned your mind, that poison has to be thrown out. You have to go completely crazy to throw it out; otherwise that craziness remains inside you, and won’t allow you to get into a silent, watching, witnessing meditation.

So do some Dynamic Meditation, do some jogging, do some running, swimming and when you feel utterly tired, when you feel an intrinsic need to relax, you are free from Christianity. Then you can sit silently, then you can watch your mind – and it is not much. You have thrown out almost ninety-nine percent of it. Maybe here and there a few pieces are clinging because they are very old and have become glued to you ... Just watch them.

Watching is a process of ungluing those small pieces hanging here and there in the mind. Once they also disappear, you don’t have a mind, you have a vast sky opening. That is the explosion, and that explosion will bring you to sachchidanand, to truth, to consciousness, to bliss.

Sat Chit Anand ~ Osho

[Prabhaker]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I've had deeply enlightened masters tell me that yoga is a bunch of bullshit, and that yogis are not enlightened.

The original fault must be with the founder, Patanjali himself. Patanjali has divided yoga into eight parts. His division is clear-cut, very scientific, but he was not really aware of human stupidity. He started with the body – and that's the right way to start. The first part of yoga must be physiological because man lives on the circumference, in the body, so the work has to start there, only then can it reach the mind. And when one has gone beyond the body and beyond the mind, then the third, meditation, happens.

So according to Patanjali the first part belongs to the body. But he was not clearly aware that millions of people would remain entangled with the first part. Hence yoga has become synonymous with yoga postures: people standing on their heads and doing all sorts of contortions. That has become synonymous with yoga.

It is not a true yoga, it is just the preface, the introductory part; and the person who thinks the introduction is the whole book is idiotic. But Patanjali did not warn people. If he had warned people it would have been better. People like Patanjali believe in others' intelligence – which is not there! They trust. Their trust is immense, their trust is as immense as people's stupidity is! They respect people's intelligence. So he did not warn people, but the warning was absolutely necessary: 'Don't get entangled in the physiological part.'

A few people, only very few – if a hundred people become interested in yoga then only one person will get out of the physiological entanglement. And that one person will become entangled in the psychological. If a hundred persons are entangled in the psychological then only one person gets out of it...and only when you get out of the mind does the real yoga begin.

The physiological part of yoga will give you great physiological powers; it can make you live a really long, healthy life. But what are you going to do with a long life? If you are idiotic, instead of being idiotic for seventy years you will be idiotic for two hundred years. It is not going to help anybody; it will be a calamity.

The physiological part is ordinary, the psychological part is ordinary. Both can give power, but power is not the goal of meditation. Power is politics, all kinds of power is politics. And power corrupts – all kinds of power – it corrupts unconditionally and absolutely. It always corrupts.

Hence I say the only essential thing, the real core of all religion, of all yoga, of all methods of search, is meditation. One should put aside everything non-essential. You can use things as stepping stones, but not more than that – just like jumping boards. You need not bother too much about them. Your whole concern should be one-pointed; you should move like an arrow towards meditation. Only then in this small life, with so little time, power and energy available and with so many problems surrounding you, can you hope that the arrow will reach the target.

Osho, Nirvana: Now or Never 

[Bob84]

@Adam M most teachers are not enlightend. And there are no levels within enlightenment. Only outside of it.

Your mind changes, and so does the effectivness of a practis. Mix all you want and dont stick to one and turn it into religion.