Insight On Free Will

[harisankartj]

You are a product of what you experience , What you experience is not up to you to choose. Hence "free will" cannot even exist?

Because what the ACTUAL HELL IS WHAT U CALL FREE WILL?!!

Suppose you were born in a foreign country to foreign parents. Your whole worldview will stem from that localised experience. You imagine "I like food of my culture. I like clothes and music of my culture. Others i may like but they are still foreign.This is what i like.I seem to have the power to choose experiences that fit my agenda. AND hence i have free will. " 

But did you choose  what type of music,people,clothes,food and experiences that you like? If so then that would mean even if you were born in another country and lived all your life there..you would still be inclined to like the type of culture that you currently live in.

Did you choose to read this post or were you led to read this post? If you did choose it then that would mean even if Leo hadnt come up with actualized.org you would still be able to read this post? Because guess what, free will means "you get to choose what you experience" ,"you get to choose your action" ALL OF IT. 

ALL your life ( mine included) is a reaction and embodiment of  local experience .

 Humans have been blessed with an intelligent mind which enabled him to SEEMINGLY change reality.But you see you ultimately didnt choose the mind.Going meta and meta ,it is understood that nothing has ever been "your" choice ...Its simply reality "reality"-ing.The fact that humans have been blessed with the mind and intellect to manipulate reality is EXACTLY whats creating this notion of "free will" but this notion is simply just that , a notion. 

 

PS FEEL FREE TO GIVE YOUR COUNTER ARGUMENTS.I  WOULD REALLY LOVE TO PUT MY INSIGHT TO THE TEST.

[Nahm]

57 minutes ago, harisankartj said:

You are a product of what you experience , What you experience is not up to you to choose. Hence "free will" cannot even exist?

If you are merely a product of what you experience, then how did you come to be before you had any experience?

Because what the ACTUAL HELL IS WHAT U CALL FREE WILL?!!

Suppose you were born in a foreign country to foreign parents. Your whole worldview will stem from that localised experience. You imagine "I like food of my culture. I like clothes and music of my culture. Others i may like but they are still foreign.This is what i like.I seem to have the power to choose experiences that fit my agenda. AND hence i have free will. " 

Help me to understand how it is that I was born in America and my favorite foods are Indian & Thai? I have been cooking them for years. They do not seem foreign to me. Hamburgers, hot dogs, French fries, are very foreign feeling to me and I don't eat them. Also, if you don't have free will, how is it that you have an agenda?

But did you choose  what type of music,people,clothes,food and experiences that you like? If so then that would mean even if you were born in another country and lived all your life there..you would still be inclined to like the type of culture that you currently live in.

I don't care for the culture of the area I was born in. It's abundant with over eating, under excercising, smoking, drinking, pleasure based drug use, equality ignorance, religion & competitive motivation.

Did you choose to read this post or were you led to read this post? If you did choose it then that would mean even if Leo hadnt come up with actualized.org you would still be able to read this post? Because guess what, free will means "you get to choose what you experience" ,"you get to choose your action" ALL OF IT. 

The website is one of many choices. (It's the best of the best IMO tho)

ALL your life ( mine included) is a reaction and embodiment of  local experience .

Have you yet to experience non-reaction? Have you practiced meditation to the point of experiencing non-thinking? 

 Humans have been blessed with an intelligent mind which enabled him to SEEMINGLY change reality.But you see you ultimately didnt choose the mind.Going meta and meta ,it is understood that nothing has ever been "your" choice ...Its simply reality "reality"-ing.The fact that humans have been blessed with the mind and intellect to manipulate reality is EXACTLY whats creating this notion of "free will" but this notion is simply just that , a notion. 

The level of atoms and the fields they interact with is nothing like the level our bodies experience, and neither of these are anything like the quantum level. It seems the same to me with consciousness, there are people experiencing free will and people who are not. There is a level where choices are made, and a higher level which only relatively speaking from that higher level, there is not free will. I experience free will because I am not consistently conscious at that higher level. I have not come accross  a human who is. Perhaps Jesus, Buddha, but I must admit all my experience with them adds up to mere conjecture. 

If you want to see if you can make choices, simply sit and do nothing. Don't make a single choice. See how many days you can make it. 

PS FEEL FREE TO GIVE YOUR COUNTER ARGUMENTS.I  WOULD REALLY LOVE TO PUT MY INSIGHT TO THE TEST.

 

[Joseph Maynor]

Free will is concept and applies to ego-based paradigm.  In awareness of reality there is no free will.  All there is is awareness.  Reality and awareness just are.  Any consideration of free will is merely the awareness of and going down the matrix of a thought-story.

Edited July 3, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[harisankartj]

 

WARNING : Inexperienced use of the english language ahead.

 

@Nahm Sorry for the miscommunication , I meant that the body-mind(especially the mind) was a product of experience.Awareness certainly isn't. I am talking about how ordinary lives of humans seem to work. Before i had any experience...I was not even aware of the "being" , everything was simply ,IS.

About the food you like,well you are right,my example to show that " our tastes for things is not determined (in the meta level) by us " was not good enough. What i said about free will is that there is no ULTIMATE free will. Of course you can come up with an agenda on how certain aspects of your life should be.What i am saying is what you PUT ON YOUR AGENDA is of course shaped by experience (feelings of happiness cannot be on the agenda because that is said to be the default state - any material object or any specific circumstance or experience is whats USUALLY on most people agenda WHICH leads to the feeling of happiness.... what i was trying to point to here is that nobody chooses what the mind chooses to want in order to feel peaceful...there is reliance on memory of past experience,speculation of future, the body's needs etc. But yeah in ordinary life i guess there SEEMINGLY exists a faculty which enables us to choose stuff but i wouldnt call it free will.

The culture example too seemed to go way off what i initially wanted to point to. Of course you wouldn't like a culture which indulges in activities that attack your well-being. 

This website here is the best choice , i agree. But in the BIIIIIIG PICTURE it seems more accurate to say that you and I and everybody were LED HERE .It just seems right .

What i was trying to mean was that everything leads to everything (the cause and effect rule)...there can be no standalone entity with "free will" to say " okay i choose this to happen to reality, i choose this experience ,etc." 

As @Joseph Maynor rightly said

4 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Free will is concept and applies to ego-based paradigm.  In awareness of reality there is no free will. 

What i was saying here is that we can think like " Oh man i mean.... i can choose to stand up from my seat anytime i want , doesn't that count for something?" BUT the REASON for you wanting to choose to stand up from your seat will always be an experience in the material world (physical and mental objects ) In the land of concepts which the mind has created certain paradigms can take higher ground than others but it's ALL based on the mind...which is ultimately realized to be only a tool which could aid survival and self agenda,nothing more.

Notice @Nahm that i was talking about free will in THE META PERSPECTIVE . but my sloppy examples (which were intended to show how we are IN THE SYSTEM OF REALITY and never having a big choice or say on it) seem to have made it hard for discernment.

 

No , i havent practiced meditation in a while actually and i am pretty guilty of that .I have a bunch of thoughts all the time but i try maintaining mindfulness . I cant say if i will reach a point of "non-reaction" because that would mean there would be a somebody not reacting ... that doesnt make sense . 

[Joseph Maynor]

1 hour ago, harisankartj said:

 

WARNING : Inexperienced use of the english language ahead.

 

@Nahm Sorry for the miscommunication , I meant that the body-mind(especially the mind) was a product of experience.Awareness certainly isn't. I am talking about how ordinary lives of humans seem to work. Before i had any experience...I was not even aware of the "being" , everything was simply ,IS.

About the food you like,well you are right,my example to show that " our tastes for things is not determined (in the meta level) by us " was not good enough. What i said about free will is that there is no ULTIMATE free will. Of course you can come up with an agenda on how certain aspects of your life should be.What i am saying is what you PUT ON YOUR AGENDA is of course shaped by experience (feelings of happiness cannot be on the agenda because that is said to be the default state - any material object or any specific circumstance or experience is whats USUALLY on most people agenda WHICH leads to the feeling of happiness.... what i was trying to point to here is that nobody chooses what the mind chooses to want in order to feel peaceful...there is reliance on memory of past experience,speculation of future, the body's needs etc. But yeah in ordinary life i guess there SEEMINGLY exists a faculty which enables us to choose stuff but i wouldnt call it free will.

The culture example too seemed to go way off what i initially wanted to point to. Of course you wouldn't like a culture which indulges in activities that attack your well-being. 

This website here is the best choice , i agree. But in the BIIIIIIG PICTURE it seems more accurate to say that you and I and everybody were LED HERE .It just seems right .

What i was trying to mean was that everything leads to everything (the cause and effect rule)...there can be no standalone entity with "free will" to say " okay i choose this to happen to reality, i choose this experience ,etc." 

As @Joseph Maynor rightly said

What i was saying here is that we can think like " Oh man i mean.... i can choose to stand up from my seat anytime i want , doesn't that count for something?" BUT the REASON for you wanting to choose to stand up from your seat will always be an experience in the material world (physical and mental objects ) In the land of concepts which the mind has created certain paradigms can take higher ground than others but it's ALL based on the mind...which is ultimately realized to be only a tool which could aid survival and self agenda,nothing more.

Notice @Nahm that i was talking about free will in THE META PERSPECTIVE . but my sloppy examples (which were intended to show how we are IN THE SYSTEM OF REALITY and never having a big choice or say on it) seem to have made it hard for discernment.

 

No , i havent practiced meditation in a while actually and i am pretty guilty of that .I have a bunch of thoughts all the time but i try maintaining mindfulness . I cant say if i will reach a point of "non-reaction" because that would mean there would be a somebody not reacting ... that doesnt make sense . 

Your choice to stand up is a perception or thought in awareness.  It may be an egoic thought.  You are assuming something is choosing.  That's a thought.  But those thoughts do not interfere with awareness of the body moving.  They supplement that awareness.  They add a thought-story to the awareness of the body moving.  You're coming at this from the egoic-paradigm.

Edited July 3, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Prabhaker]

@harisankartj

Mohammed had a disciple named Ali. Ali once asked Mohammed’s opinion about whether a man is independent and free to do what he wants, or whether he is bound by his destiny in everything he does. Ali asked, ”Can one do as one wants or not?” – and man has been asking this question for a long, long time. ”If a man is not able to do as he desires,” Ali said, ”then it is useless and foolish to preach to him not to steal, not to tell lies, not to be dishonest. Or is it destiny that one man should always be there to preach to others not to steal or not to do this or that, knowing full well that it is also destiny for a dishonest man to remain dishonest, for a thief to remain a thief, for a murderer to remain a murderer? All this appears absurd. If everything is predestined, all education is useless – all prophets, all saints and all teachers are useless.”

   People have asked such questions to Mahavira and to Buddha also. If what is going to happen is predestined, why should Mahavira or Buddha take so much trouble to explain what is right and what is wrong? So, Ali asked Mohammed what he thought about this controversial matter. If such a question was asked to Mahavira or Buddha, they would have given a very complicated and deep reply, but Mohammed gave a reply which Ali could understand. Many of Mohammed’s replies were direct and straightforward. Ordinarily, answers given by people who are uneducated or less educated, or who are simple villagers, are direct and frank.

      Mohammed did not give any metaphysical reply. He asked Ali to lift one leg and stand on it. Ali had asked a question about whether a man is free to do what he wants. Why should Ali stand on one leg? Mohammed said, ”First lift one leg.”
     Poor Ali lifted his left leg and stood there on one leg.
Mohammed then asked him, ”Now lift the right leg also.”
    Ali was puzzled and asked how it was possible. Then Mohammed said, ”If you had wanted to, you could have lifted the right leg first, but now you cannot.... A man is always free to lift the first leg – it can be whichever he wants – but no sooner has the first been lifted when the other becomes bound to the earth.”

   With regard to the nonessential part of life, we are always free to lift the first leg. But once that is done it becomes a bondage for the essential part. We take steps that are nonessential, become entangled, and then we are not able to do the essential. So Mohammed said to Ali that he had all the freedom to lift the right or the left leg first. But once he exercised that freedom and lifted one left leg, he was incapable of lifting the other leg. So freedom is there within certain limits, but beyond those limits there is bondage.

   There are three areas of life. In one area, that which is the essential core, everything is predetermined. In another area, that which is peripheral, everything is uncertain. Between these two conditions – the essential and the peripheral – there is ample room for changes through the exercise of choice.

Hidden Mysteries ~ Osho

[harisankartj]

@Joseph Maynor That meta-awareness of perception helped,thanks

@Prabhaker  Thanks for that insightful story

[Nahm]

@Prabhaker Good morning Prabs!

Am I interpreting your (Osho's) sentiment correctly? You (Osho) are saying there is free will, but then it is limited by physics / gravity / source?

[Nahm]

@harisankartj If there's no free will, can you explain to me why I am choosing such different things than those around me? (Food, health, etc)

Also, am I understanding you correctly that sometimes you are not in "metaawareness" and are choosing, and sometimes you are in "metaawareness" and are not choosing?

It seems that you are stating that free will is, like all things, relative.

Edited July 3, 2017 by Nahm

[Prabhaker]

@Nahm

Take an example, a person is preparing to steal. Stealing is not predetermined; it can’t be claimed that stealing is inevitable or unavoidable, there is complete freedom whether to steal or not. But once stealing has been committed, it is as if one foot has been lifted and the other foot remains on the earth: after doing it, you cannot undo the act. And the total effect of the act of stealing will spread over the personality of the person who did it. But as long as stealing is not done, the other alternative is present and available.

The mind of a person swings between yes and no. If he says yes, he will be thrown towards the periphery; if he says no, he will move towards the center. Thus, in the middle, there is a choice. If he makes a wrong choice he is thrown towards the periphery; if he makes a right choice he moves towards the center. If a person lives in the peripheral and middle areas in such a way that he begins to move towards the center, he will become religious. But if he lives in such a way that he is never able to move towards the center, his life will remain irreligious.

An unconscious man cannot be free, cannot have any freedom. Freedom comes as a consequence of consciousness, freedom is the function of consciousness. An unconscious man exists like a machine, like a robot. You may not know, but you are continuously functioning as a robot. Somebody abuses you and anger arises. It is almost like when you push the button and the fan starts moving. Somebody pushes the button and you become angry. What kind of freedom is this? You don't have any choice, to be angry or not to be angry. If the choice is not there there is no freedom. Freedom means freedom to choose -- you can decide whether to be angry or not, then you are free. But can you decide? At the most you can decide to show your anger or not -- that is another thing. But to be angry or not to be angry, have you got any decision about it, any choice about it?

[harisankartj]

@Nahm Okay my english is not so good ,so i hope you understand what i am trying to point to here.The fact that you choose different things than those around you is because of the fact that the it feels good for your body mind to choose some things which others don't . What i was saying is that it is not in your power to choose what things that you come to like . 

Say,you choose  vegan diet while those around you choose to eat meat. The fact that those people seem to "choose meat" is actually an illusion.In their unconsciousness,they see meat gives stimulation which excites the body so they go for meat.But notice their "choice" of eating meat is dependent on the fact that the body(the taste) was stimulated on eating meat. But let's go meta. Did they choose what the body was supposed to want to get excited?Imagine if somebody was born into another humanoid species that , due to their body configuration , got excited when eating rocks.Then that person would decide to choose to eat rocks because that's what making it "excited". 

And you say " Hey but im not unconscious, im vegan and i consciusly choose to avoid eating meat" .You are right .YOU DO GET TO CHOOSE ..Since you are more conscious than others,you are aware of what is happening and to an extent you are capable of "choosing ",But this choosing is limited

YEah...im saying free will IS relative because its a concept the mind created to make sense of the world so as to be able to change it to fit the needs of an individual.

 

3 hours ago, Nahm said:

 

Also, am I understanding you correctly that sometimes you are not in "metaawareness" and are choosing, and sometimes you are in "metaawareness" and are not choosing?

 

 

  YEAP,THATS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY . If you ask a highly developed monk "is there free will?", he will answer in the ultimate meta level since he has dedicated his whole life to truth. He will then say "no there isn't."

 

It's actually pretty nuanced how the conversion from "insight into the nature of something through direct experience/direct seeing" to "interpretation and ramifications of the empirical knowledge by human mind" . The place,the context where im coming from might be different from the place where you're coming from . i made this claim of "no free will" in the highest meta level i could possible get to as of now. And your questions of "but dont i choose this thing that thing" are valid indeed ... but they cant be given an absolute answer SOLELY because of the fact that the nature of insights is not to " be an answer to a question" but to simply reveal what is true

[Nahm]

2 hours ago, Prabhaker said:

@Nahm

Take an example, a person is preparing to steal. Stealing is not predetermined; it can’t be claimed that stealing is inevitable or unavoidable, there is complete freedom whether to steal or not. But once stealing has been committed, it is as if one foot has been lifted and the other foot remains on the earth: after doing it, you cannot undo the act. And the total effect of the act of stealing will spread over the personality of the person who did it. But as long as stealing is not done, the other alternative is present and available.

Yes. I think I understood Osho's point. So you are saying the person expresses free will in stealing or not stealing. 

 

The mind of a person swings between yes and no. If he says yes, he will be thrown towards the periphery; if he says no, he will move towards the center. Thus, in the middle, there is a choice. If he makes a wrong choice he is thrown towards the periphery; if he makes a right choice he moves towards the center. If a person lives in the peripheral and middle areas in such a way that he begins to move towards the center, he will become religious. But if he lives in such a way that he is never able to move towards the center, his life will remain irreligious.

So again, you are saying we have free will.

An unconscious man cannot be free, cannot have any freedom. Freedom comes as a consequence of consciousness, freedom is the function of consciousness. An unconscious man exists like a machine, like a robot. You may not know, but you are continuously functioning as a robot. Somebody abuses you and anger arises. It is almost like when you push the button and the fan starts moving. Somebody pushes the button and you become angry. What kind of freedom is this? You don't have any choice, to be angry or not to be angry. If the choice is not there there is no freedom. Freedom means freedom to choose -- you can decide whether to be angry or not, then you are free. But can you decide? At the most you can decide to show your anger or not -- that is another thing. But to be angry or not to be angry, have you got any decision about it, any choice about it?

Yes. I can. I can't remember being angry. It has been many years. 

Thank you for your input. Much appreciated as always Prab.  

 

[SOUL]

Oh look, another person that has decided to tell me I don't have free will but I choose not to believe them.

[Nahm]

12 minutes ago, harisankartj said:

@Nahm Okay my english is not so good ,so i hope you understand what i am trying to point to here.The fact that you choose different things than those around you is because of the fact that the it feels good for your body mind to choose some things which others don't . What i was saying is that it is not in your power to choose what things that you come to like . 

This is not my experience. I try everything I can. 

Say,you choose  vegan diet while those around you choose to eat meat. The fact that those people seem to "choose meat" is actually an illusion.In their unconsciousness,they see meat gives stimulation which excites the body so they go for meat.But notice their "choice" of eating meat is dependent on the fact that the body(the taste) was stimulated on eating meat. But let's go meta. Did they choose what the body was supposed to want to get excited?Imagine if somebody was born into another humanoid species that , due to their body configuration , got excited when eating rocks.Then that person would decide to choose to eat rocks because that's what making it "excited". 

Nah. Meat can taste delicious. I used to eat it. 

And you say " Hey but im not unconscious, im vegan and i consciusly choose to avoid eating meat" .You are right .YOU DO GET TO CHOOSE ..Since you are more conscious than others,you are aware of what is happening and to an extent you are capable of "choosing ",But this choosing is limited

I'm not vegan. So you are saying there is free will. 

YEah...im saying free will IS relative because its a concept the mind created to make sense of the world so as to be able to change it to fit the needs of an individual.

Now you are saying there is no free will. 

 

 

  YEAP,THATS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY . If you ask a highly developed monk "is there free will?", he will answer in the ultimate meta level since he has dedicated his whole life to truth. He will then say "no there isn't."

He chose to be a monk. He chose to answer you. He chose the specific response. 

 

It's actually pretty nuanced how the conversion from "insight into the nature of something through direct experience/direct seeing" to "interpretation and ramifications of the empirical knowledge by human mind" . The place,the context where im coming from might be different from the place where you're coming from . i made this claim of "no free will" in the highest meta level i could possible get to as of now. And your questions of "but dont i choose this thing that thing" are valid indeed ... but they cant be given an absolute answer SOLELY because of the fact that the nature of insights is not to " be an answer to a question" but to simply reveal what is true

Everything is relative. I have experienced the transcendence and seen I had no free will. That is not the state of consciousness I live 99% of my life in.  Also, try getting anything done or making any choices on just about any psychadelic. Trying to apply that wisdom / glimpse to everyday life is a huge misunderstanding. Everything is relative. There is no truth.