My "problem" When Doing Contemplation

[Markus]

As Leo has described self-inquiry or contemplation, he's said that the mind will come up with a lot of bullshit. My "problem" is that when I ask "What am I?", the mind always goes totally silent. It doesn't come up with bs answers. That seems like a good thing since the mind isn't obscuring what is, that should probably make it easier to have an enlightenment experience. Yet, self-doubt being one of the fundamental traits of the self, it is a bit disconcerting.

I was thinking about for example the technique they use at enlightenment intensives, where one has to ask "Who or what am I?" and then communicate to one's partner what the mind comes up with. If I were there, it's like I wouldn't come up with anything. There are obviously a lot of ideas about who I am but they don't come up during contemplation. 

[Emerald]

I've wondered the same thing. Assumptions will come up, like I'm supposed to be listening for a little voice to tell me something. Then thoughts will come up trying to rationalize. Then frustration and resistance. Then panic at nothing coming up... am I wasting my time... maybe I should try something else... maybe I'm doing it wrong.

My advice is to just keep asking it without trying to control the experience and maybe some wordless insight will break through or maybe that isn't how it happens at all. Try to clear away your assumptions and expectations and just commit to the meditation. Trust the experience, is my advice. Do as I say, not as I do.  

[jjer94]

The problem that a lot of people get into with self-enquiry is that they become mechanical with asking "What am I?" As if by asking it enough the mind will give them an answer and there will be a flash of light and boom, they're enlightened. Or, they actually expect an answer to the question. Reminds me of a kid begging for candy over and over to their parents until the parents give in. Sorry, it doesn't really work that way.

Insights don't come as an explosive event. They're very ordinary. All of the insights for enlightenment are available in your experience right now. It's just a matter of removing all of the hidden beliefs in your head that tell you you're something. In my opinion, the main purpose of "What am I?" is to expose and remove all of these beliefs so that what remains is pure not-knowing. And in the realm of pure not-knowing, you will know you are Truth by simply being it. The answer to "What am I" does not come from mind, nor is it in the form of words. 

If your mind goes silent, I figure that's a good thing. It's run out of things to tell you what you are. Stay in that realm of silence and you'll see what's been staring you in the face this whole time...

 

[Leo Gura]

@Markus That's actually a very common phenomena at enlightenment intensives.

It's just another game the ego is playing.

At an intensive you would be told to communicate exactly what arises. If nothing arises, communicate that.

But if the mind was truly silent, there would be no problem and you'd probably be enlightened.

Look more carefully at what the mind is doing when you say "it's silent". Don't believe that shit for a second.

And if you ever do experience true silence, just sit there and enjoy it. It won't last long.

[Sarah Marie]

@Markus I think of this often and the only thing I hear is energy. I am energy. My mind is never silent, ego always has an answer for me.

[Leo Gura]

@Sarah_Flagg The biggest trick is creating a genuine state of not-knowing. This is hard to do in practice. You have to actually not know that you are human body. I find it helpful to start questioning why I believe I am human body until something in the mind clicks and it says, "Oh yeah... it is kinda arbitrary, isn't it? Maybe we're not a human." << And that's when the window opens. Not-knowing occurs.

[Aldo Marchand]

We have some kind of beliefs that we call knowledge, being this way most close possible to what we call truth 

Contemplating the nothingness is crucial to reorganize some data we acquire along life.

I agree that we try to organize our vague beliefs planting them in the sand of our ego.

Investing on the self is like sowing seeds into the abysmn.

[Markus]

Thanks for the replies. @Leo Gura Yes, perhaps I'm self-deceiving, don't want to rule that out. It does seem though that putting my attention on the back of the head at least temporarily silences the mind. It seems that my attention always goes to some body sensations in the chest or head but there usually isn't a verbal answer.

[dice]

Same problem here. The mind doesn’t come up with answers. I communicate with this silence but no answers again. But I’m definitely not enlightened.

Edited February 19, 2016 by dice

[Wasabi]

@Leo Gura Hey Leo can you please make a video about how to enter a state of not-knowing. Of course I've read over it several times in Ralston's books but still more depth is helpful. 

[Leo Gura]

@Wasabi Yeah, I'll shoot a video about not-knowing.

The Radical Openmindedness video guides you into a state of not knowing. But I'll do more.

[Neo]

Hey this thread is really good.

I am getting restless or bored 10 minutes into any meditation and really find the tips above useful. I will try harder to put the time in, I keep lying to myself that I don't have the time, but Leo could look on his logs and wrap my knuckles because he could see I'm spending at least an hour a day on the forum.

When I do try to meditate, I'm just in a swarm of random thoughts and feelings all over the place, and I'm hoping this will settle down with practice. But here's the thing why I am replying: I am thinking all day constantly about this whole subject and revelations about my past and shit that is happening is constantly churning up all day long. It's like I'm rubbish at the meditation but it's still working. And I'm actually changing as a person, mostly for the good, some a bit more strange.

 

[Isle of View]

@Neo two suggestions to reduce your concerns about the "mind chatter":

1) when meditating, don't resist the stream of thoughts. Let them pass. Gently remind yourself that you are about to practice mindfulness. This means, looking at the "things" as they are without resisting or clinging to them.
You need to realize that this is your current scenario: lots of thoughts coming up. Lots of stuff that you avoid looking at and therefore are resisting.
Let them pass and look at them as they're coming up.

2) You could try a simple technique before meditation. This technique can be also done for an extended time period as a "stand-alone" technique.
Here is the process:

       0. Decide that you want to release some accumulated resistance

1. Rub your body with your hands: your arms, your chest and your legs for about 10 seconds. Do it conciously. Be aware of the fact that YOU are rubbing your body in the Here and Now. Feel both sides: your hands touching and rubbing the body part and the feeling at the body part.
2. Find an object in the room you could touch (may be a desk, the door, a wall etc.).
   And then go over and touch it for at least 5 seconds. It's best to touch and hold it until you are fully experiencing the object in the Here and Now. Be also aware of your body position, the haviness/lightness of your body, how your feets touch the floor, the position of your arms relativly to the other parts of your body.
3. repeat Steps 1 & 2 repetitivly until you feel more present in the Here and Now.
   This will be accompanied with more aliveness and a refreshed feeling.
   This will "break through" a lot of "mind-stuff", "Hucha", "heavy residues of energy" or however you may call it.

While doing this process, don't think too much. Whenever you start your "thinking diarrhea", gently acknowledge this fact to you and conciously return to the main process (1&2, 1&2 etc.)

Caution: lots of tiredness can come up while going through the process. Don't stop now. Just go through it. You can have sudden feelings comming up, lots of imagery and projections streaming through your mind etc. Also you may yawn a lot (that's why this little procedure is also called Rub and Yawn). It depends on the level of resistance you're sitting in. The more resistance, the more things you'll be going through.

Don't give up too early. This is a DO-IT process, not a "think about" theory. Do it for at least 10-15 minutes a day.
Never stop when you are still being "dopy", "woozy" or "sitting" in something. Always end up at a winning moment, when you feel more here and more alive.

Doing this process for some days in a row can greatly enhance your perceptions. It can bring you back from an "alternate reality of mind projections" into the actuality of the here and now. Your thinking process will be more light and focused.

Don't underestimate the power of this simple process by the easiness of its instructions.

This little process can also be done anytime you feel triggered and "out of the here and now" (when you start projecting negativity into the environment instead of aligning your presence with the actuality of the moment).

In case you give it a try, let me know the results.

Also note: if you've done any Sedona Methode, there is an rule of thumb there: "Get rid of the moods/emotions/resistance, and the thoughts connected to it will fall away aswell".
Don't be concerned with "thoughts" too much. Work instead on improving your general mood level.

Chris

 

Edited February 21, 2016 by Isle of View

[Neo]

Thanks Chris, I will give some of the ideas a go, I had my best results yet today. I think generally I'm too pressured to get results and in a hurry and a little thing is telling me I might actually make amazing progress, eventually if I can just get going.

[Isle of View]

3 minutes ago, Neo said:

Thanks Chris, I will give some of the ideas a go, I had my best results yet today. I think generally I'm too pressured to get results and in a hurry and a little thing is telling me I might actually make amazing progress, eventually if I can just get going.

I see.

The above process may help you with that. Don't feel pressured. Just raise your awarness for your body and your surroundings.
The good thing about the above process is: you do it in a baby-step manner. Just feel you body, some of your surroundings and than back and forth.
There is no need to force it. Just do it for the fun of it. :-)

[Isle of View]

18 minutes ago, Dummy said:

Ok so I just did the Rub&Yawn thing for the first time, for 10 minutes. Nothing much happened so far. A little bit of that "aliveness" feeling, if that's what it was (slight tingling in the body), slightly light-headed now as well.

That's about it. No tiredness or yawning or emotions or imagery. Internal voice went on as usual, nothing out of the ordinary, and I managed to return to the rubbing/touching well enough.

Hope I'm doing it right. Will keep it up for the coming days and see what happens.

 

Cool.

Next time, when ever the internal voice comes up, acknowledge the voice without engaging in communication, so that you move on with the process without the voice. I know, it will come up again and again. You at the other hand acknowledge again and again and continue with the process.

While touching the objects, try to put as much attention into the direction of the object as you can. And then, move some of your attention to the position of your feet, how you stand and so on. You can do it simultanously aswell if this is better (split some of the attention to the object and another portion to the body position).

Just put your attention on the external world and body, when you are touching and rubbing, throuhout the process and don't pay too much attention to the "internal talk". 

24 minutes ago, Dummy said:

Nothing much happened so far. A little bit of that "aliveness" feeling, if that's what it was (slight tingling in the body), slightly light-headed now as well.

Great.

The yawning is not always coming up.

 

Kind regards, 
Chris

[Isle of View]

3 hours ago, Dummy said:

Second day 10 minutes of Rub & Yawn.

Still nothing.

 

Dummy, what does nothing mean?

The purpose of this technique is to come more into the here and now. Less "in the mind". 

The reason we put attention to the body and environmental objects is to move the attention away from the mind.

Can you feel more present after the excercise?

Or what does nothing mean? What do you expect to happen?

(The yawning doesn't come up for everyone, as said above.)

 

Kind regard, 
Chris

[Emerald]

@Isle of View and @Dummy What is Rub and Yawn?

[Isle of View]

@Emerald Wilkins It's a simple procedure I described here: http://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/1222-my-problem-when-doing-contemplation/#comment-12454

Kind regards, 
Chris

[Isle of View]

1 minute ago, Dummy said:

So if nothing comes up during the exercise, it either means there's not that much resistance, or I'm doing something wrong, no?

What say you?

No, maybe you are just fine. It's really hard to say from a remote position.

 

2 minutes ago, Dummy said:

Was half expecting some of the above quoted shit to come up, like feelings and imagery etc. Or just a little yawn to let me know it's doing something

Usually this process is to be done when a client or the person you work with (or you, when you work on yourself)  is really havily triggered and engulfed with his own mind-stuff.

The "imagery" I speak of is not like a drug trip, just the usual thoughts (which are composed of images, sounds and stuff like that).

 

Yesterday I told you to try out this procedure because yesterday you reported this in the other thread:

On 14.4.2016 at 1:48 PM, Dummy said:

On 14.4.2016 at 1:39 PM, Isle of View said:

On 14.4.2016 at 1:22 PM, Dummy said:

What do you use?

Really depends on what is accessed. First thing is to really find out what the pain is.

So, what do you have there?

I'm not sure. Several things mixed together probably, not concrete enough to put my finger on it. Sometimes nothing at all. Sometimes desperation about nonsense painful shit coming back again and again, even though I already know it's bullshit and I'm trying to see through it and let it go, etc. It generally doesn't make much sense, except perhaps as just old habits that die hard. I just don't know what it is, much less what to do about it. And that in itself is frustrating too.

The Rub & Yawn was the best thing to apply from a remote position.

You see, after you did it, you communicated a more precise descriprion of what you were sitting in.

 

So no worries. It may be that the thing you yesterday were engulfed by is just no more clinging to you (or vice versa :-))

 

Don't use this procedure when you're in a high mood level and feel alive in the present moment.

Use it in case you want to come more into present time, away from to much thinking process. 
Then you will have benefits from doing the excercise (whether you're yawning or not).

 

Hope this helps.
Chris