Psychedelics

[theinevitableandi]

On 4/17/2016 at 2:14 AM, Henri said:

@DreamSpirit There is a difference in meaning of the word ` dope`. In Holland we consider dope as a stimulating substance, but I found out in the US the meaning is less wide. Anyway clearing this up.

Yes, off course psychedelics can change your perspective on reality, they are supposed to do.  It`s why people take them. Only just a few take them to achieve so called spiritual experiences. So this gives rise to the following questions;

- Can you call experiences out of psychedelics `spiritual`?

For sure these experiences are different than the everyday experience. They can even be beyond ego-experiences so it`s in a way really a different perspective on reality. The worlds spiritual disciplines however all agree on this point that it`s not spiritual and the main reason for that is that it is forced in an unnatural way. You can compare it with going to fly with a plane or with a hang-glider. With a plane you go high up, but you need a pilot, you need fuel, you can only look out of the window and you are totally dependent and not aware where you are going. Being back on earth you`ll have to interpret your experiences the right way and you cannot because you lack the right knowledge. With a hang-glider however it`s a different story. You are free as a bird, can look a 360 degrees, are in control where to go, how long, the way, all your senses are there and there is not the problem of interpret your experiences when back on earth. This comparison will do to get the difference.

- Do genuine spiritual teachers use psychedelics or recommend it?

None of the people I call genuine do that. It`s even so that they warn against the use of any drugs. It`s well known that more people are doomed because the dark side of psychedelics than there are people who really benefit from it considering their own development. Off course we can argue on the question who are the genuine spiritual teachers. To me these are mainly the famous Hindu and Buddhist teachers who are rooted in a tradition that goes back a long way. When you consider Graham Hancock a genuine spiritual teacher we can finish the discussion. You`ll qualify yourself as an ignorant person with a lack of knowledge.

- Isn`t the shaman who gives you Ayahuasca a spiritual teacher, who is having a lot of knowledge about it?

He is not. He is an ignorant magic/mythic thinking bush-guy who cheats ignorant western people by promising them paradise. The only knowledge he is having is of a plant. Here we arrive at a remarkable point of the discussion. People using drugs are in a way so ignorant. They want liberation and experiences the 21th century way. I want it and I want it now! They don`t understand that even growing up takes 18 years for the body and 25 years for the psychological part and think enlightenment is some instant device you can achieve under a tree in the Amazon by eating a plant. Think about it! You are all so ignorant.....

 

Anyway, the topic drugs, psychedelics, Ayahuasca and whatever is already a lot discussed on this site. To my opinion it`s in a way ruining this site when it`s discussed next to the real spiritual stuff. It`s like a site which is devoted to the newest cars and people are throwing posts of their newest bikes on it. So @Leo Gura maybe a good suggestion to make a separate chapter on the drugs stuff to keep it away from real and more important posts?

 

 

bro you have too many beliefs! let it go! 

[Pav]

Another thing about psychedelics is the potential therapeutic benefits. I find that they can often force you to view things from another perspective, which can help solve your problem psychologically or even see that it was, in fact, a complete non-issue in the first place.

I also find that they can bring up repressed neurosis or other psychological problems you've been neglecting or didn't know about. This can be highly beneficial if you are 100% ready and willing to face what comes up. You may find that you solve the neurosis that evening. However, if you resist this, I find this is when you may have a bad trip. Psychedelics must be taken with complete openness to the experience and 100% non-resistance. 

To find the therapeutic benefits of psychedelic it must be done under the right setting, with the right mind set, and with the right intention.

[Richard Alpert]

3 hours ago, Mat Pav said:

Another thing about psychedelics is the potential therapeutic benefits. I find that they can often force you to view things from another perspective, which can help solve your problem psychologically or even see that it was, in fact, a complete non-issue in the first place.

I also find that they can bring up repressed neurosis or other psychological problems you've been neglecting or didn't know about. This can be highly beneficial if you are 100% ready and willing to face what comes up. You may find that you solve the neurosis that evening. However, if you resist this, I find this is when you may have a bad trip. Psychedelics must be taken with complete openness to the experience and 100% non-resistance. 

To find the therapeutic benefits of psychedelic it must be done under the right setting, with the right mind set, and with the right intention.

I agree 100%.

The therapeutic benefits with the right set/setting can be better than from anything else. I cant say 100% because there is not enough data and studies, but i cant imagine anything being more therapeutic than a good mushroom trip. Scientist etc. should really study this subject, but its hard to get the funding because of the bad reputation labeled to psychedelics.

[DreamSpirit]

On 4/17/2016 at 11:14 PM, Henri said:

When you consider Graham Hancock a genuine spiritual teacher we can finish the discussion. You`ll qualify yourself as an ignorant person with a lack of knowledge.

- Isn`t the shaman who gives you Ayahuasca a spiritual teacher, who is having a lot of knowledge about it?

He is not. He is an ignorant magic/mythic thinking bush-guy who cheats ignorant western people by promising them paradise.

Henri,

This is why you were warned.  Your tone is very condescending!  And why approach a thread named Psychedelics, if that's not something you're interested in.   It's clear and apparent that you came in to start an argument.  And calling Shamans "bush-guys"  What exactly are you insinuating from that???  That's almost bordeline racist!  Are you saying he lives in a bush?  

Your entire tone is off-set, judgemental, and unfriendly.  And be clear...this is why you've been warned!  This type of community is not one for that.  Instead this is a place of encouragement, conversation, and exploration.  We're all after self-actualization, how we individually go about that is up to the person.  Some things work for others while some things don't.  That's a personal decision for everyone else to make.  It's not your place to come in and shove your opinion in people's faces like that.  It's like you were intentionally starting an argument.  Not cool!

[DreamSpirit]

On 4/17/2016 at 11:14 PM, Henri said:

When you consider Graham Hancock a genuine spiritual teacher we can finish the discussion. You`ll qualify yourself as an ignorant person with a lack of knowledge.

- Isn`t the shaman who gives you Ayahuasca a spiritual teacher, who is having a lot of knowledge about it?

He is not. He is an ignorant magic/mythic thinking bush-guy who cheats ignorant western people by promising them paradise.

Henri,

This is why you were warned.  Your tone is very condescending!  And why approach a thread named Psychedelics, if that's not something you're interested in.   It's clear and apparent that you came in to start an argument.  And calling Shamans "bush-guys"  What exactly are you insinuating from that???  That's almost bordeline racist!  Are you saying he lives in a bush?  

Your entire tone is off-set, judgemental, and unfriendly.  And be clear...this is why you've been warned!  This type of community is not one for that.  Instead this is a place of encouragement, conversation, and exploration.  We're all after self-actualization, how we individually go about that is up to the person.  Some things work for others while some things don't.  That's a personal decision for everyone else to make.  It's not your place to come in and shove your opinion in people's faces like that.  It's like you were intentionally starting an argument.  Not cool!

[Henri]

@DreamSpirit  I had a such a good laugh after reading your reply, I could not almost stop anymore... Let me explain.

A shaman from the Amazon lives in the jungle, so one can say he is a jungle-guy. Like when you are living in the city you are a city-guy. But instead I used the word `bush` what to my opinion was the same as in dutch `bos`, which means woods or forest. So forest-guy would have been good also. But I just found out that the word `bush` does not mean `forest` or `wood`in English/American language but `plant`. Am I right here so far? So I can imagine it`sounds weird the phrase I used and I can apologize for that though it was a bit out of ignorance. In South Africa the word `bush` is also a common word, but that`s probably because it`s coming out of dutch language.

The tone I use is not on purpose. Part of the reason can be that, as you found out, the English language is not my native language and when expressing myself, to my opinion the facts are more important than the tone. By the way, when you`ll have a look on some other posts including the ones in the topic `psychedelics`, I think you`ll agree on this, that I am not willingly and on purpose write in an unfriendly way.

So giving a warning just because of that, I do not understand. When this is where you draw the line I would suggest you to read all the posts everyday so you can give dozens of warnings.

Furthermore this site is not only about goody, goody, goody. We can have real discussions here and off course support each other, learn from each other and inspire each other. To show you that just read some of my posts. You`ll find out I am having the best intentions.

When you tell me I have crossed a line, to my opinion you have crossed a line as a moderator by proclaiming drugs. May be this is because I think to high about what the job of a moderator is on a site devoted to self-actualization. When so I apologize for that, someone can indeed have other standards.

Concerning the topic `psychedelics` I would appreciate it, if you would give your response to the opinions I have given.

 

 

 

[DreamSpirit]

@Henri You have your opinion and I have mine.  I disagree with insinuating someone is ignorant because they suggest listening to Graham Hancock.  It's all in your tone.  You weren't being factual; you said "some bush-guy".  Both statements clearly suggest you were being condescending.  It's my job as a moderator to control that.  As I've stated, we can disagree all we want, but when you go in attacking (even subtly) like that; it can be a huge problem.  And your slight dig at the end about having higher standards of what a moderator is to do in here, I caught that too.  Once again, using little digs and jabs; unacceptable and rude.  So yes, you've been warned.  End of story.  Message me if you have anything more to say; as I don't want to go too far off topic in this thread.  We're now talking your specific post and not the topic itself.

[Henri]

@Mat Pav Thanks for your reply from `Down Under` mate...

On comments; ok, I can agree, nothing wrong to be meant.

On teachers and beliefs; talking from enlightenment-perspective on teachers and beliefs. In a way everyone is your teacher, starting with your mom when you are born. Beliefs are always open to discussion, just because it`s a belief. Belief is a means, never a goal.

On drugs; I`m experienced. Weed, Ganja, LSD, mushrooms, cocaine and XTC. I used to work in `coffeeshops` in Holland. I grew my own weed.  All my life I was very much interested in, like you, everything that`s got to do with the mind, psychology, trans-personal stuff, philosophy and the Huxley-gang.

So I know where you guy`s are after when doing psychedelics, there`s nothing strange about that. It`s just that I very consciously had to experience the consequences also.

When giving up, sitting down to find out truth, living in ashrams I was forced to endure those consequences and I can tell you it was hell. The shit that came out physically, mentally, emotionally was exhausting. The pranayamakosha was almost ruined. For weeks I had nightmares where I before never even remembered a dream. Meditation was hell, `demons` rising up and much more shit. Experiences I had while under influence of drugs where still alive in my head, coming back all the time but now twisted and formed in other shapes. Due to great luck, good fortune or good karma I met someone who gave me a total cleansing up process to undergo. This was my salvation though it took 6 weeks to accomplish.

Years later I had the bliss to enter the state of Samadhi. And from my experience mate, I can tell you that it is of another category than psychedelics. Had I before the opinion that heaven on earth was my experience to live with my love on the beach in Goa, tripping almost every day, than I knew heaven on earth is really something else. So the warning about drugs is out of experience though I am able to understand you all out there. And I am telling you that tripping has got nothing to do with the state of Samadhi. So if you are after enlightenment, do not take drugs. If you just want the good life, go for it. 

 

[nbolt]

Nobody is saying psychedelics are an end or that they are a stepping stone towards or comparable to enlightenment. Doesn't mean they can't be discussed as a forum topic.

[David1]

@Henri Good to hear you got back on your feet, and found the right path. Just to give you the right idea...i do mushrooms about twice a year. I don't smoke weed, or very rarely...in combination with the shrooms. Weed, in my opinion is a very tricky drug. I've had friends go psychotic on it. Unlike mushrooms, it can be abused. People tend to smoke it every day.

1 hour ago, Henri said:

For weeks I had nightmares where I before never even remembered a dream.

This is typical for weed smokers. It reduces rem sleep. This is, in my opinion, why people go psychotic if they smoke weed for a long time. Suppressed rem sleep. When you quit smoking weed, you experience 'REM rebound'. The brain tries to compensate for the lost rem sleep.

Edited April 19, 2016 by David1

[DreamSpirit]

I'm glad to see we're back on topic and able to have a healthy, non-accusatory discussion.

Also, just so everyone is clear about what is acceptable on this site as far as the user guidelines and the discussion of Psychedelics are concerned (I know there was more than one person); so this is for everyone. 

This is taken straight from the list of what is NOT accepted:

• Discussing drugs (exception is made for legitimate psychedelics for spiritual growth & people quitting drugs)
• Ganging up on other members, starting factions that splinter the community
• Name-calling, blaming, finger-pointing, conspiracy theories

So, I think we’re good in here on our discussion of Psychedelics for those who were curious

If you have different opinions on the issue, please note what IS accepted:

• Expressing strong opinions in a thoughtful, non-hateful, non-violent manner

So, with everything, please watch your tone and maintain a friendly demeanor, especially when disagreeing and let's continue to enjoy the discussion and learn from each other.

[Richard Alpert]

So we cant talk about heroin here?

[DreamSpirit]

@Richard Alpert Not in here