How Do Other People Exist If Their Minds Are Not Included In My Reality?

[Joseph Maynor]

Pardon my ignorance folks, but I still don't understand this.   Somebody please help me.  Are other people illusory?   What about their minds?  Their minds are not in my reality so am I to conclude their minds don't exist?  This sounds absurd to me.  Maybe they're just like me and I am part of their non-dual reality.  But that's concept and has no bearing on my reality.  In my reality other people lack minds.  Are their minds part of my reality or not?  It seems we cannot say that they are.  Well what does that do to our existential claim that others exist? It seems to go bye bye because we cannot confirm that claim by referencing reality alone, we would have to cling to concept too, and that's a no no when we're talking about reality.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Tano]

4 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Pardon my ignorance folks, but I still don't understand this.   Somebody please help me.  Are other people illusory?   What about their minds?  Their minds are not in my reality so am I to conclude their minds don't exist?  This sounds absurd to me.  Maybe they're just like me and I am part of their non-dual reality.  But that's concept and has no bearing on my reality.  In my reality other people lack minds.  Are their minds part of my reality or not?  It seems we cannot say that they are.  Well what does that do to our existential claim that others exist? It seems to go bye bye because we cannot confirm that claim by referencing reality alone, we would have to cling to concept too, and that's a no no when we're talking about reality.

Other people exist. Their minds are not accessible directly to anyone, but one can elucidate some of the content by what people say and do.

Further, one can discern form the discrepancy between 'say' and 'do' - what kind of human they are dealing with.

[FirstglimpseOMG]

It can take a fair bit of 'stretching' the mind to get closer and closer to an understanding of this, let alone going past the intellect to experience it empirically. Maybe consider digging somehow further into the true nature of reality and what your consciousness actually is. Question the most basic assumptions about existence and consciousness. Try and see them as integral to each other, they are in fact, the same thing. Leo Gura has the video goods on all of this, but you have to open up your mind RADICALLY to get it right, and somehow be eroding and dismantling your intricate web of beliefs. Time to undermine the most basic, obvious, unshakeable assumptions you have always just naturally held  as solid and unquestionable. Consider Leo's video episodes; A Rant Against Naive Realism, or the Enligntenment and No-Self videos, and force yourself to ingest the information as literal. The videos can force a major shift if you open up to the pure fact that Leo is speaking completely literally, not in any metaphors or allusions. The mind will pretty much refuse to play..but you are much bigger and much more than mind.

[eputkonen]

7 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Pardon my ignorance folks, but I still don't understand this.   Somebody please help me.  Are other people illusory?   What about their minds?  Their minds are not in my reality so am I to conclude their minds don't exist?  This sounds absurd to me.  Maybe they're just like me and I am part of their non-dual reality.  But that's concept and has no bearing on my reality.  In my reality other people lack minds.  Are their minds part of my reality or not?  It seems we cannot say that they are.  Well what does that do to our existential claim that others exist? It seems to go bye bye because we cannot confirm that claim by referencing reality alone, we would have to cling to concept too, and that's a no no when we're talking about reality.

 

You are illusory too.  You are not what you think you are.

How does your pituitary gland exist...as it is not a part of your reality either?  Have you ever seen it or felt it?  The problem is you think your reality is real...but your reality is not reality.

Even much of your own mind is unknown to you...hence the subconscious that is spoken about in psychology.  As it is unknown...and un-experienced...by your logic it would not exist or not be reality.  The limits of "your reality" is your direct experience, but that is not reality.  That is just consciousness that is tied to a specific body/mind and perspective.  That is the illusion of "me".

[Tano]

3 minutes ago, eputkonen said:

 

You are illusory too.  You are not what you think you are.

How does your pituitary gland exist...as it is not a part of your reality either?  Have you ever seen it or felt it?  The problem is you think your reality is real...but your reality is not reality.

Even much of your own mind is unknown to you...hence the subconscious that is spoken about in psychology.  As it is unknown...and un-experienced...by your logic it would not exist or not be reality.  The limits of "your reality" is your direct experience, but that is not reality.  That is just consciousness that is tied to a specific body/mind and perspective.  That is the illusion of "me".

Foggy fog.

Let's take your pituiary gland out and see how you will fare without.

[Nahm]

superposition is the fabric of everything.   it is the wifi. individual minds are the computers so to speak.   the self is just software created by the  Computer, which is created by the fabric. 

[S33K3R]

This question is too big too answer. It took me years of meditation and research to come to my own conclusion. Even if I spent a bunch of time telling you.... You would be skeptical and in the end would never come to a conclusion. Some things need to be researched and experienced in order to be known. 

[Joseph Maynor]

11 minutes ago, Nichols Harvey said:

@Joseph Maynor

Don't worry. You will grow out of it. Lol

Why do you think nobody bothers with this stuff?

It's not because it's difficult. It's because it's insane.

Egos talking about egos pretending there is no ego at the same time hiding up mirrors to egos that are not there.

 

 

You think reality is illusory?

[Joseph Maynor]

@Nichols Harvey Gotcha.  Interesting.  I gotta make sure I am not being too much of an idealist regarding reality.  I'll consider this in the next couple of days and see if I see any shifts.  It's interesting that there are parallels in epistemology in Western Philosophy to this -- The shift from Hume to Moore.  It's the person that doesn't think they're being idealistic who often is.  Common-sense ain't to be underestimated.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Joseph Maynor]

@Nichols Harvey I am beyond the stage of correcting others now.  I have a deeper grasp of what reality is too.  And also what ego is.  I feel more peace and love now than ever.  And I'm pretty sure I am at stage yellow too.  I guess yellow never gives up green.  Green learns to love and the importance of love.  So, I have made some enlightenment progress.  Maybe not as much as you have, but I'm definitely on the path further-up than where I was when I came on here.  So, kudos to you folks for tolerating me.  Nobody's perfect in the beginning.  Let's remember that.  There's a learning-curve to this stuff and then after that there's a practice-curve.  I'm not interested in attacking anybody anymore.  Unless you want me to.  Hey, if you want me to, I'll do it with relish haha out of a sense of amusement and contribution (with emphasis on the latter of course).  If you ask for it and it helps you, why not?  But you gotta ask me first.  I don't care otherwise.  I am tender-hearted and want to help other people, but I don't want to play the role of healer either.  That can turn into a distraction from my own growth.  It's a tough balance as you know yourself to negotiate this dilemma.  I gotta worry about my own personal development first and remember that always.  And I still have a lot of work to do.  It's like the old saying when you point a finger at someone you are pointing three right back at yourself.  That saying is very wise.

Here's a video from Leo that I find really good for my growth right now.  Maybe you can find time to watch it.  Thanks friends.

 

Edited June 28, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Nahm]

@Joseph Maynor The word reality gets whatever meaning the user intends. Everything is relative.      Tell me if this helps....Your mind is the same as everyone else's. Not similiar, but the same substance. The difference comes from the experiences, perceptions and interpretations that substance encounters as it walks and talks as a person. 

IMO, it would be faster to meditate and study superposition. Again, IMO, you'll eventually see that the imagination within all of us is the substance of the universe/reality that is not a specific thing like a physical chair. It is what your body and brain and mind are 'made' of. It is also what your dreams and aspirations are made of, and it's the only real thing (Disclaimer; it's not really a thing) When it perceives itself, the perceived is so convincing, it seems like the perceived is real, when in actuality, the perception is real. The experience is real. 

[Nahm]

@Joseph Maynor There's no tolerating you bro. You're fuckin beautiful. Your vulnerability, honesty and straightforwardness are decades ahead of most. I'm very happy for you with your progress and I love how you enjoy each epiphany without it inflating your ego. I for one am impressed. 

[Joseph Maynor]

@Nahm Thanks.  Honesty is the best policy.  At the end of the day.  Unless you're a dick, honesty is the best policy.  And maybe even for the dick too, I guess it depends on the context.

[Nahm]

@Joseph Maynor Thank you! Even being a dick is a good way to go imo. At least it speeds up the process. Better to be a total asshole and create misery & self imposed problems & get shloads of feedback than to be so timid you never make any progress. It's all relative. 

[eputkonen]

3 hours ago, Tano said:

Foggy fog.

Let's take your pituiary gland out and see how you will fare without.

My point was it exists whether you are consciously aware of it or not (it is a part of "your reality" or not).

You mistook what I said based on your own beliefs and assumptions.

[actualized3434]

You are getting these many replies.. That definitely proves other people exist 

Actually if you think about it, we only know that other people exist by inference.. Even if you see a tree, you conclude 'I see a tree, therefore it exists'... When you sleep, the world simply disappears.

One thing is absolutely true: You exist

[Falk]

11 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Pardon my ignorance folks, but I still don't understand this.   Somebody please help me.  Are other people illusory?   What about their minds?  Their minds are not in my reality so am I to conclude their minds don't exist?  This sounds absurd to me.  Maybe they're just like me and I am part of their non-dual reality.  But that's concept and has no bearing on my reality.  In my reality other people lack minds.  Are their minds part of my reality or not?  It seems we cannot say that they are.  Well what does that do to our existential claim that others exist? It seems to go bye bye because we cannot confirm that claim by referencing reality alone, we would have to cling to concept too, and that's a no no when we're talking about reality.

In a sense people don´t exist, yes! and that includes yourself. What does exist is "one-ness" or emptyness, or awareness... This oneness mistakes itself for a person ...and it IS a person ...but NOT ONLY! and NOT MAINLY a person...it is still mainly one-ness beeing conditioned for 4billion years to be human.  (so quite a long evolutionary time isnt it, thats why you shouldnt expect the ego or the character to disapear anytime soon ... and it is ok if it doesn´t ...just don´t make the mistake to believe everything it says and see you are more than that!

Do people exist? who want´s to know that? Awareness would not ask such a question. THat question is asked by your charakter not by one-ness , so let the question be there as what it is ..just form arising in your consciessness, but don´t give it too much attention, if you do, the ego will grow. and a big ego leaves no place for the silence of awareness ... 

peace

[Dodo]

Thesis : Other people don't exist 

Antithesis : Other people do exist

The truth is the middle point between these two

[Tano]

@eputkonen  You said this:

"How does your pituitary gland exist...as it is not a part of your reality either?  Have you ever seen it or felt it?  The problem is you think your reality is real...but your reality is not reality."

which clearly suggests that because something is beyoynd direct experience - it does not exist.

If it was NOT your underlying message then you could try and make your expression not so wooly.

[Dodo]

2 minutes ago, Tano said:

@eputkonen  You said this:

"How does your pituitary gland exist...as it is not a part of your reality either?  Have you ever seen it or felt it?  The problem is you think your reality is real...but your reality is not reality."

which clearly suggests that because something is beyoynd direct experience - it does not exist.

If it was NOT your underlying message then you could try and make your expression not so wooly.

That's nice when we catch both points in the same place.

Let's have some options for fun

1) Truth (reality) is objective (not about first hand experience at all)

2) Truth (reality) is subjective (all about first hand experience)

3) Truth (reality) is when subject and object are one

4) Truth (reality) is when subject and object are no more (0)

I guess many have said already that there is no subject, that the subject is an illusion aka Ego, but at the same time that there is no objective reality either (no out there, it's all in you) - obviously if there is no subject,  there is no object.

So from that I gather that subjective and objective truths are both illusory and part of the egoic paradigm.

I guess the Tao te ching already told us that