Enlightenment And Experience

[Prabhaker]

2 hours ago, actualized3434 said:

self-realization and enlightenment?

Self-realization is reaching to your center. Many religions have believed that self-realization is the end—for example, Jainism—you have come to your ultimate truth. It is not true. Self-realization is only a dewdrop which has become aware, alert, contented, fulfilled. It is almost impossible to fall back from self-realization—but I am saying almost impossible, not absolutely impossible, because the self can deceive you; it can bring your ego back.

The self and the ego are very similar. The self is the natural thing and the ego is the synthetic, so it happens sometimes that a self-realized man becomes a pious egoist. His egoism is not going to harm anyone, but it certainly prevents him from dropping into the ocean and disappearing completely.

Enlightenment is the dewdrop slipping from the lotus leaf into the vast, infinite ocean. Once the dewdrop has fallen into the ocean, now there is no way even to find it. The question of turning back does not arise.

Enlightenment, hence, is the ultimate truth. What begins as flowering moves on the path of awakening, reaches to self-realization. Then one quantum leap more—disappearing into the eternal, into the infinite.

You are no more, only existence is.

From enlightenment, falling is simply impossible. You are gone—and gone forever; not even a shadow or a trace of you is left behind.

Up to self-realization the possibility remains—it becomes less and less, but it remains.

You can start being egoistic about your self-realization: “I have known, I am a realized person.

I am a saint, I have encountered God’—but that “I” is there, howsoever pious. Even its shadow is dangerous; it can pull you back.

-OSHO

From The Hidden Splendor, chapter 16

[eputkonen]

21 hours ago, actualized3434 said:

I have some questions..

How are enlightenment and experience connected?

The moment you get enlightened, will that be an experience? Does some kind of experience accompany the moment of realization? How does enlightenment change the experience?

 

You just experience the world as it is.  The illusions of the mind simply drop away (with enlightenment).  So you recognize the illusions of the mind you were taking for reality...and then you see the world as it is.  This is far more ordinary than it sounds.

Enlightenment is more about realization...a eureka moment in which prior you believed the illusions of the mind and after you don't because you see they are illusions.  Afterwards, the world is still experienced...but without the illusions of the mind (the blinders and colored lenses we are accustomed with).

[Ananta]

Omg, I just lost a post I was writing...ugh

[Prabhaker]

3 minutes ago, Anna1 said:

Omg, I just lost a post I was writing...ugh

When you accidentally delete anything ,  you can bring it back by pressing  ctrl + z , immediately.

[Nahm]

 

When I saw that it's all beliefs it made it much easier to see my beliefs and see beyond them. 

[Ananta]

@Prabhaker thanks, but I'm on my phone.

[Ananta]

I can't remember my whole post as I was writing it on/off for 45 minutes.

But, in a nutshell, with Moksha (enlightenment) the only experience to be had is the switch in identification. Instead of awareness being seen as an object by the ego. They switch places and ego becomes an object (I-thought) and you, awareness (The Self) become the subject and the two never get confused again. 

 

[Ananta]

Oh, the "experiences" you hear about up to the point of Moksha (enlightenment) are awakenings (Self realizations) and epiphanies. That are helpful before/during the  "assimilation" of Self knowledge, but are not Moksha/enlightenment "itself", because during these "experiences" awareness is seen as an "object" with the ego being the subject.

[actualized3434]

@eputkonen  are you enlightened?

[actualized3434]

@Anna1

8 hours ago, Anna1 said:

I can't remember my whole post as I was writing it on/off for 45 minutes.

But, in a nutshell, with Moksha (enlightenment) the only experience to be had is the switch in identification. Instead of awareness being seen as an object by the ego. They switch places and ego becomes an object (I-thought) and you, awareness (The Self) become the subject and the two never get confused again. 

 

I wish you didn't lose everything you wrote.. In case if you find time and remember some of what you wrote, please post...

I still don't get it.. My question 'why enlightenment can't be an experience' still remains unanswered as I am not clear about it yet.. Does moksha that you are talking about happens in a moment as an event or it happens gradually? We know that for Buddha it happened as an event under a bodhi tree.. And how can one not say that it is an experience? Any event in life is an experience, because there is some kind of valence, positive, negative or neutral...

[Prabhaker]

54 minutes ago, actualized3434 said:

why enlightenment can't be an experience' still remains unanswered

The experience of the ultimate is not an experience at all - because the experiencer is lost. And when there is no experiencer, what can be said about it? Who will say it? Who will relate the experience? When there is no subject, the object also disappears - the banks disappear, only the river of experience remains. Knowledge is there, but the knower is not.

That has been the problem for all the mystics. They reach to the ultimate, but they cannot relate it to those who are following. They cannot relate it to others who would like to have an intellectual understanding. They have become one with it. Their whole being relates it, but no intellectual communication is possible.

  Osho ~ Tantra The Supreme Understanding 

[eputkonen]

1 hour ago, actualized3434 said:

@eputkonen  are you enlightened?

Yes.  Woke up in 2005.  So my reply was my own experience.

[actualized3434]

1 hour ago, Prabhaker said:

The experience of the ultimate is not an experience at all - because the experiencer is lost. And when there is no experiencer, what can be said about it? Who will say it? Who will relate the experience? When there is no subject, the object also disappears - the banks disappear, only the river of experience remains. Knowledge is there, but the knower is not.

That has been the problem for all the mystics. They reach to the ultimate, but they cannot relate it to those who are following. They cannot relate it to others who would like to have an intellectual understanding. They have become one with it. Their whole being relates it, but no intellectual communication is possible.

  Osho ~ Tantra The Supreme Understanding 

Thats a beautiful explanation... So, there is actually no word for it.. So, some people call it experience but some people say it is not.. I guess it is just the problem of choosing the words...

From what I understand, neither of this statements are wrong:

1. enlightenment is an experience

2. Enlightenment is not an experience..

But, There is no importance for both the statements as long as the context clarifies it..

@Anna1 Do you agree?

 

[actualized3434]

@eputkonen thats interesting because just a day before there was an active thread here asking if anybody in the forum in enlightened.. I believe it was concluded that no user who is active now is enlightened.. So, i think this thread will draw the attention of many people here..

So, since you are enlightened, give us a practical solution to enlightenment.. Just give us a summary of the path, what one should do to become enlightened,how long does it take etc.. We have heard these things before, but still prefer to hear it today from the person who claims enlightenment... no matter how many times we hear such things, it is always an inspiration and a reminder...

Edited June 27, 2017 by actualized3434

[Prabhaker]

@actualized3434

It is not that sometimes you feel love. When love is really there, you are love. And when anger is there, you are anger.

This is what Krishnamurti means when he says again and again, "The observer is the observed."

The seer is the seen, and the experiencer is the experience.

When you become one with existence, when drop merges with sea, then experiencer becomes the experience. 

[actualized3434]

@eputkonen waiting for your response..

Also, what according to you is the difference between enlightenment and self-realization

[eputkonen]

1 hour ago, actualized3434 said:

@eputkonen thats interesting because just a day before there was an active thread here asking if anybody in the forum in enlightened.. I believe it was concluded that no user who is active now is enlightened.. So, i think this thread will draw the attention of many people here..

So, since you are enlightened, give us a practical solution to enlightenment.. Just give us a summary of the path, what one should do to become enlightened,how long does it take etc.. We have heard these things before, but still prefer to here it today from the person who claims enlightenment... no matter how many times we hear such things, it is always an inspiration and a reminder...

There is no path...there are no steps.  How long does it take - that is a question assuming a path and steps.  It assumes a process and progress.  Enlightenment is not a process...it is realization...Self-realization.  A realization regarding who/what you really are and seeing through the misidentification and illusions of the mind (especially those that create division).  You have either seen or you have not seen...there is no such thing as partial seeing.  Enlightened can be described as seeing through the illusion of ego.  Therefore, you can not willfully do anything to become enlightened.  What can the ego do to see through itself?  Any willful action (which is ego) only reinforces the apparent reality of the illusion.  This is why some have called enlightenment a grace...it happens to you.

The realization is sudden and complete...an "aha moment" and reframes everything (or perhaps deframing is a better word).  An old Zen saying is - when the bottom of the bucket drops out, all the water goes with it.  So when enlightenment happens - you clearly see through the "I" that you have taken to be who you are.  With this, suffering based on the "I" goes with it.  If you don't clearly see and so there is doubt...the "I" remains believed and suffering continues.

Seeing (i.e. sensing) is not a willed action.  As long as we are conscious, we hear what is around us...we see what is in front of us...etc.  You could call it awareness...I just say seeing.  Seeing can be gently led; like your breath - can be led, but happens of itself when not led.  If you wanted to truly see an orange, you would just hold it and look at it.  The longer you looked, the more you would learn.  Seeing brings understanding.  Science knows this...they observe...that is how you come to know.

We don't know who we are.  And so we could just look at ourselves.  You could just look at the "I".  What is it?  Is it really who you are?  What is the source of the "I"?  Just by looking you may understand what you are not...just look at the "I" and also look for the source.  Understanding what you are not may make it easier to realize what you are.

Also a help, is just being present (that is - not taking away from the experience of now by thinking about the past or future).  If you were just sitting and being present, this would be called meditation.  Periods of "just sitting" is of value.  But do not get stuck with only being present when you are sitting.  Do not sit with ego and pride at how long you sit and expecting to gain something...again you are creating your own obstacle. 

Always be present.  We do not wake up partly because we are lost in thought.  Enlightenment can only be realized here and now...any thought distracts from seeing what is here and now.  If you are 100% devoted to the experience of this moment...you still could not be aware of everything because there is just too much data for our senses and brain to handle.  But if we are 100% devoted to the experience of this moment, there is no room left for thought.  Thought would cease.  Thoughts are only about the past and future.  Thought is never about now, when the mind tries it is already thinking about the past or trying to anticipate the future.  Thought is never about the now...experience is about the now. 

When you are totally present, thought ceases...and in that silence of mind...then ask yourself but once - "who am I" or "what am I"...and then don't think about it or make any efforts to answer the question.  Just send out the question...and in silence just be.

If you are lucky, you will gain nothing...but lose much.

In the end, be present and look at oneself is all I can recommend.  Neither is really a doing.  Thought is a doing...and so not being present is a doing.  If we did nothing, we could automatically be present.  Also, we can't help but to be aware...to see...and so just look at yourself out of curiosity.  Don't you wonder who you really are?

[actualized3434]

@eputkonen  so you are just suggesting being present and self-inquiry... To put it in one line, just be present and ask 'Who am I'?...right?

Do you think this covers everything, addresses all the problems a seeker faces? Obviously, people don't get enlightened just by hearing this.. In reality it takes many years to realize the truth for almost all people except some rare exceptions like Ramana Mahirishi... Even though there is no path, everyone has to start by assuming there is a path... Is that not right?

And the second question that I asked you was, what is the difference between self-realization and enlightenment? I heard the answers from other people, but since you say you are enlightened I want to hear what you are going to say...

 

[Ananta]

4 hours ago, actualized3434 said:

Thats a beautiful explanation... So, there is actually no word for it.. So, some people call it experience but some people say it is not.. I guess it is just the problem of choosing the words...

From what I understand, neither of this statements are wrong:

1. enlightenment is an experience

2. Enlightenment is not an experience..

But, There is no importance for both the statements as long as the context clarifies it..

@Anna1 Do you agree?

 

I've been very busy at work. I'll just say that what I mean by Moksha/enlightenment not being an experience means, no discrete subject-object experience, itself, classifies it. 

There must be a switch in identifying oneself with/as a "thought" to identifying as your true "Self", awareness and seeing from this perspective. 

That may "feel" some what like an experience, but isn't the classic subject-object experience most think of. It's awareness "aware" of itself as awareness, the Self recognizing itself and this needs to be "abiding". To truly be enlightenment.

So, it's a subtle understanding.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Anna1

[Ananta]

57 minutes ago, actualized3434 said:

@eputkonen waiting for your response..

Also, what according to you is the difference between enlightenment and self-realization

So, I've got something more to say about this....

If one has realized the Self (Self-realization) AND that caused a shift in identification to the Self AND that was "abiding" (didn't come and go), then I'm cool with it being called enlightenment/Moksha. However, this would mean "Self knowledge" was obtained through the experience.

If one of the 3 aspects is lacking, then it was an awakening "experience", not enlightenment.