Enlightenment And Experience

[krazzer]

On 26-6-2017 at 5:45 AM, actualized3434 said:

I have some questions..

How are enlightenment and experience connected?

The moment you get enlightened, will that be an experience? Does some kind of experience accompany the moment of realization? How does enlightenment change the experience?

@actualized3434 it's not an experience. More like a realization. Have you ever had an epiphany? It's like that, but like 100x more intense.

[eputkonen]

7 minutes ago, actualized3434 said:

 

"so you are just suggesting being present and self-inquiry... To put it in one line, just be present and ask 'Who am I'?...right?"

I am suggesting doing nothing...in the deepest sense.  Perhaps with a curiosity about who you really are. 

This may turn into self-inquiry.  Which may help to clear some of the misidentifications, but I caution against self-inquiry becoming another practice and doing to gain something.  Self-inquiry is not required...but may help.  If self-inquiry happens, that is fine...but doing nothing is better.  Self-inquiry can become a mental exercise...and thinking and thought is counterproductive to realizing what is here and now.

"Do you think this covers everything, addresses all the problems a seeker faces?"

Do nothing...with an attitude of curiosity about who you really are...just see and be aware of what is.  Then come back with a specific question.  I don't know what problems seekers may face...and not all people have the same problems.  There is nothing else I can generically say or recommend - anything more would have to be tailored for the specific seeker.  I might point at something else to just look at...to understand with observation...but I would not suggest any new practice.

"Obviously, people don't get enlightened just by hearing this."

Yes, obviously...you have to see for yourself who you are.  I could tell you, but you probably won't believe me...or worse, you would believe me.

"In reality it takes many years to realize the truth for almost all people except some rare exceptions like Ramana Mahirishi."

It does not take many years...that is a belief that gives the ego an excuse to continue in power.  We don't realize the truth because we don't want to see it...as long as you avert your eyes or refuse to recognize what you see...then you can continue believing what is false.  The truth dispels darkness instantly.  The truth is always here and now...but instead you are thinking about enlightenment in terms of years in the future.  And so you don't see what is now.  It takes as long as it takes to realize the truth...it takes longer when you are distracting yourself and are not present. 

"Even though there is no path, everyone has to start by assuming there is a path... Is that not right?"

Not at all.  Assuming there is a path is part of the problem.  Paths take you somewhere else and it takes time to get there.  What path could you take to here?  How long will it take to get to now?   Paths are part of the distractions.  Paths say 'I can't be at the destination until'...and so it is a way to delay.

"what is the difference between self-realization and enlightenment?"

No difference...just as my last answer said - "Enlightenment is not a process...it is realization...Self-realization."

[actualized3434]

@Anna1 There you go... thats exactly what I was saying.. So, Enlightenment can be an experience, but an experience doesn' t have to be enlightenment..

[actualized3434]

@eputkonen  Do you know anyone in the history or anyone who is living now who heard such a teaching and instantly enlightened? Our tendencies are so strong, our habits of ego are so powerful, our vasanas are very old and established... How can someone instantly realize the truth without working on removing all the obstacles? What you are saying may be an useful pointer to know that there is no path in the absolute level, but how can it be helpful for everyone? We have an eight fold path, for example, which was given by Buddha, which is a path.. Of course, If I can do nothing, I can be enlightened immediately.. But we have to do many things just to get to the point where we can do nothing. There have been moments when I was without thought for a minute or two with full awareness of present moment, but the usual tendencies of the mind comes back. What can I do?

[Ananta]

1 hour ago, actualized3434 said:

@Anna1 There you go... thats exactly what I was saying.. So, Enlightenment can be an experience, but an experience doesn' t have to be enlightenment..

I wrote it out the way I did, because in the Vedanta tradition, Self-realization typically comes before Self-actualization (assimilation of Self knowledge in every aspect of one's life), not at the same time.

I'm  suspicious of anyone stating that Self realization didn't need any "assimilation" to gain Moksha (freedom/liberation). One needs a teaching methodology and a qualified teacher, because ignorance is hard wired and the mental tendencies are strong. If you sit around and do nothing, guess what you'll get?...nothing. 

Traditional Vedanta is the grand daddy of Self knowledge. 

Edited June 27, 2017 by Anna1

[actualized3434]

@Anna1

23 minutes ago, Anna1 said:

I wrote it out the way I did, because in the Vedanta tradition, Self-realization typically comes before Self-actualization (assimilation of Self knowledge in every aspect of one's life), not at the same time.

I'm  suspicious of anyone stating that Self realization didn't need any "assimilation" to gain Moksha (freedom/liberation). One needs a teaching methodology and a qualified teacher. If you sit around and do nothing, guess what you'll get?...nothing. 

Traditional Vedanta is the grand daddy of Self knowledge. 

I guess Vedanta has been in existence for many centuries...I would like to see an authentic source from Vedanta to see where this distinction between self-realization and enlightenment is made..  I did read James Swartz interview but I prefer to see something directly from Vedantic scriptures such as Upanishads or Bhagwad Gita or even Shankara's books, where it clearly states that these two are different...  Can you help with that?

[Ananta]

1 minute ago, actualized3434 said:

@Anna1

I guess Vedanta has been in existence for many centuries...I would like to see an authentic source from Vedanta to see where this distinction between self-realization and enlightenment is made..  I did read James Swartz interview but I prefer to see something directly from Vedantic scriptures such as Upanishads or Bhagwad Gita or even Shankara's books, where it clearly states that these two are different...  Can you help with that?

No, I can't. I'm not hung up on the concept. 

If one is enlightened, they are also Self-realized. If one has a Self realization experience and then falls back into identification with ego, as one's self, then it was an epiphany or awakening. Many have had Self realizations, then fell back into ego identification only minutes or hours later.

You're making it more complicated then it is. Perhaps I added to the confusion, sorry for that.

 

 

 

[actualized3434]

@Anna1 It is not about being hung up on the concept. I would love to read more of James Swartz's articles but the distinction that is made by James between self realization and enlightenment looks like his own opinion and that makes me doubt if all of his teachings are in accordance with Vedanta. I think it is important to get this doubt clarified,

I have a little background in Vedanta and to my knowledge, no such distinction is made between self-realization and enlightenment. But I could be wrong. So there is nothing wrong in getting it clarified.

You are saying that you are  suspicious of anyone stating that Self realization didn't need any "assimilation" to gain Moksha (freedom/liberation). So this distinction certainly matters to you in someway. The same way, I am a little suspicious of Jame Swartz just because he is making such a distinction.

But please don't get me wrong. I don't want to miss an authentic teacher either. So, if James Swartz is teaching Vedanta as it is, it will be certainly helpful for me. I just need more clarification.

[eputkonen]

1 hour ago, actualized3434 said:

@eputkonen  Do you know anyone in the history or anyone who is living now who heard such a teaching and instantly enlightened? Our tendencies are so strong, our habits of ego are so powerful, our vasanas are very old and established... How can someone instantly realize the truth without working on removing all the obstacles? What you are saying may be an useful pointer to know that there is no path in the absolute level, but how can it be helpful for everyone? We have an eight fold path, for example, which was given by Buddha, which is a path.. Of course, If I can do nothing, I can be enlightened immediately.. But we have to do many things just to get to the point where we can do nothing. There have been moments when I was without thought for a minute or two with full awareness of present moment, but the usual tendencies of the mind comes back. What can I do?

 

You are mistaken if you think hearing such a teaching is enough to instantly enlighten.  It is not about hearing.

The root obstacle is the "I" that you think you are.  On the foundation of the illusion of ego, all other obstacles are built.  You can try to remove all these other derived obstacles, but you will never reach the root.  In not reaching the root, there is no end to new obstacles arising.  You can spend your whole life removing obstacles...and never question the foundation on which it is all built...and remain in ignorance and delusion till death of this body/mind.

Doing nothing means just being present and seeing/aware...which both happen of their own accord when we do nothing at all.  It is helpful to everyone to say don't do anything...just be present and look at the "I".  The delusion is to believe we have to do many things just to get to the point where we can do nothing.  That is how we convince ourselves to keep doing things...which only strengthens the illusion of "I".

When you are without thought (like you say you have been), out of curiosity wonder who you are...but then don't do anything.  Even if it is a minute...when there is no thought...who are you?  What is the feeling, experience, identification, etc.? 

[actualized3434]

@eputkonen Then what is the significance of Yoga and eight fold path in Buddhism.. Is it all useless?

[Ananta]

@actualized3434 gotcha, didn't mean to be rude or anything. Yes, clear your doubts. That is important. I just meant that when I read "self realization" in writings I can usually tell which way it is meant depending on how it's used. I already described in my above post what could be the differences, so will not state again here.

 

 

 

 

[actualized3434]

@Anna1 Yes, you mentioned the distinction between awakening and enlightenment, and you said James used the word 'self-realization' for awakening.. But these are modern interpretations. I am just interested to know if there was such a distinction in traditional Vedanta, which will add more clarity.. I just wrote an email to shiningworld asking this question.. I hope I will get some useful answer regarding this.

[eputkonen]

36 minutes ago, actualized3434 said:

@eputkonen Then what is the significance of Yoga and eight fold path in Buddhism.. Is it all useless?

The whole of the Noble Eight-fold Path in Buddhism is within the first - samyak-dṛuṣṭi / sammā-diṭṭhi.  This is often translated as "Right View", but "sam" is akin to "sum"...and so complete or whole are also adequate translations.  With Right View, there is Right Thought/Intent.  With Right View, there is Right Speech.  With Right View, there is Right action...and so on.  When I am suggesting "do nothing...just be present and look" - this is the secret to "Right View".  The right way of viewing the world.  The complete or whole way of viewing the world.  This is discovered by just being present and looking.  At times, questioning what you are viewing...to see through the illusions of the mind.

 

One of the greatest documents of Yoga is the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali.  Right at the beginning it says,

"Now Yoga is explained.

Yoga is the cessation of the revolutions of the mind.

Then the Seer abides in Itself."

Yoga is just ways to quiet the mind and abide in the Self.  Tat tvam asi.  They use various methods to attempt this.  Surrender and devotion - as in Bhakti yoga - could work for some...but few are able to let everything go (even themselves).  As for me, "quieting the mind and abiding in the Self" is what I have been saying.  Be present (which means cessation of the revolutions of the mind) and just look (to realize the Self).  Once the Self is realized, then abiding in the Self is not difficult.

 

I would not call either useless.  However, pitfalls and obstacles exist as both Yoga and Buddhism have adopted many beliefs and practices...and have adopted the idea of progress (fairly widely).  Spirituality became something to inflate the ego.  They often focus too much on doing things instead of looking at who they think the doer is.  Unfortunately, I have seen Yoga and Buddhism become another distraction for some practitioners...but throughout history there have been those freed by the teachings as well.  Adyashanti woke up through following Zen (as I recall).

You asked, "so, since you are enlightened, give us a practical solution to enlightenment"...and so I gave the best answer I could based on my experience (while trying to minimize current pitfalls I see).  I point in a different way (than Buddha or Patanjali)...and because it is different it may help others.  I see that most people are very busy doing things to wake up and have been doing things for many years...so I suggest to stop doing things and just see/be aware.

I only woke up after I ceased doing anything for a couple minutes.  I had given up the spiritual search a year or so prior, but my mind was still busy and noisy.  I was still doing things.  Then after becoming truly present for the first time...thought stopped...and in that silence of mind I woke up.  There is power and potentiality in doing nothing.  The ego does not want to do nothing.  It wants to do something.

[actualized3434]

@eputkonen that is a clear explanation, thanks... 

'Spirituality became something to inflate the ego.'

'I point in a different way (than Buddha or Patanjali)...and because it is different it may help others.  I see that most people are very busy doing things to wake up and have been doing things for many years...so I suggest to stop doing things and just see/be aware.'

Got it

 

[Ananta]

"Although the experience of the inner self is invariably uplifting and intensifies the quest, it is 
always confusing because the knowledge gained from these experiences challenges the view of oneself as a needy, incomplete, inadequate isolated creature. Many of these experiences can accurately be described as the experience of oneness with all things, limitlessness, and transcendent bliss.

During this stage, which might also be called the meditation stage, the mind, formerly riveted on happenings in the outer world, turns inward and fixes itself on the self, the light within, and at some point, usually after intense investigation, realizes the self.

This realization is invariably formulated in experiential terms and is thought by many to be the end of the search, the ultimate state.

But the science of self inquiry says that while this is a welcome and enjoyable state, it is not the end, because there is still a sense of separation between the experiencer and the object of experience, the self. When there is separation there is doubt, and the doubt is always that this state, like all states, will end, plunging the experiencer back into darkness. This fear is invariably fulfilled as the experience is not the direct experience of the self, which is impossible for reasons already discussed, but a reflection of the self in a still mind. No blame. However, the mind is subject to change, so the experience inevitably ends.

This doubt is due to the failure of the experiencer to understand that what is experienced is just his or her own self, in which case it could never be lost, because when do you not exist?

The failure to convert the experience to knowledge is usually caused by the twin beliefs that knowledge is merely 
intellectual and that there is such a thing as a permanent experience. Experience is permanent in samsara 
but discrete experiences are not. So when the experience happens, the intellect is submerged in the bliss, 
peace and radiance, switches off, as it does in most intense sensuous experiences, and stops inquiring.

To enter the final stage, which is not a stage, inquiry must continue during the experience of the self. In ordinary perception, a thought wave arises in the mind corresponding to the nature of the perceived object. You see a tree and you know it is a tree because the self, awareness, illumines the tree 
thought as it arises in the intellect.

Similarly, when the ego experiences the reflection of the self in a pure 
mind, a thought corresponding to the nature of the self, an unbroken “I” thought, arises, and this thought 
needs to be owned. When it is taken as one’s own, the “I” thought, backed by experience, destroys the 
notion in the mind that it is limited, incomplete and separate.

At this point, due to inquiry, everything stops and there is a subtle shift. The ego and the Self switch places. The Self, which heretofor has mistakenly been seen as the object of inquiry, "becomes" the subject, and the ego, which had mistakenly been taken to be the subject, "becomes" the object."

From "How to attain Enlightement" ~James Swartz

@actualized3434 This may not answer your question, but may be helpful.

[actualized3434]

@Anna1 thanks.. it is very useful

[Nahm]

The end is what you mean by "I".

 

[Ananta]

1 minute ago, Nahm said:

The end is what you mean by "I".

 

There is only one "I".

 The ego is a false "I", its an object that thinks it is the subject.

[Nahm]

@Anna1 Yes, that is what I said. There are so many words through this post. It is a far more simple thing than the context here.  If you say I and mean a human by your name, you are not enlightened. If you live, go by a name, "are" a human, but your "I" is awareness, everything - then you are enlightened.  Honesty supersedes, all else is just words and meaning can not possibly be known and so are fruitless. All the books and teachers are hamster wheels with carrots. Unnecessary and typically hindering. 

There is someone who meditates properly and someone who doesn't. It can be expedited, but otherwise can be obtained very simply, over time. The hero's journey however, is entirely different and it seems that's where so much confusion comes from.

[Ananta]

4 minutes ago, Nahm said:

All the books and teachers are hamster wheels with carrots. Unnecessary and typically hindering. 

Ignorance is hard wired, if that's not your experience, then that's fabulous!

Others need teachers and teachings to lead them out of Samsara. I find Vedanta to be the crown jewel of Self knowledge. 

Have you had absolutely no teaching or teacher?  If not, AND you have enlightenment/Moksha what issue do you have with others that find a teaching necessary?