What Are The Differences Among The Ideas "ego Death", "ego Transcendence", And "enlightenment"

[Joseph Maynor]

Let's get down to some real issues!  Take a shot at this advanced folks!  Well, everybody take a shot at this, what the hell, it's all good.

And if the ideas refer to different things, please explain that.

Let's get everybody's fragment together and make a soup!  

Edited June 23, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Ananta]

Hi,

The ego is the I-thought, that arises within the mind, although it is a thought, it takes itself to be "real" vs an object, because it has identified itself with awareness.

Therefore, it thinks it's an individual, volitional, "entity". This is the false self. This is the "aspect" of the ego that gets "transcended", negated or seen through, so to speak.

Instead of the intellect identifying as the little "me", there is identification as yourself, awareness, which is aware of the apparent person you are associated with. There is no difference between this when abiding and "quote on quote", enlightenment. 

Ego death is not possible. Again, the ego is the I-thought. Ego will continue to arise during every subject-object experience, including subjective experiences . It also continues to arise pertaining to the body. 

Edited June 24, 2017 by Anna1

[Dizzy]

Ego Death - what initially you assume is "you" is dying. The ego acts like a guardian trying to protect itself. The death of an ego happens when the egoic self is no longer in control, consequently it dosent have a particular identification with the self.

 

Ego transcendence - The process of nonabiding awakening to abiding awakening. The ego is there, but it's loosing it's power to identify with emotions, feelings, needs, wants and all of the patterns an individual have.

 

Enlightenment - Well, there are tons of books and videos about it, So I will put in my own short words: When the mind is free of the need to be free, no longer seeking any particular experience or expression. The mind simply is in the state of consciousness without a self and apart from the dreaming statre.

 

[Joseph Maynor]

@Dizzy Very nice!  I think I'm hitting the ego-transcendence stage now.  I'm losing a lot of emotions.  All my negative emotions are disappearing more and more.  More peace rather than positive emotions.  Peace and acceptance.

I love your definition of ego-death. I went through that stage distinctly last March.  Have you experienced it?

Edited June 24, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Joseph Maynor]

@Anna1 So you never really lose the ego entirely in your view?  It's interesting that people have different theories of all these concepts.  

Edited June 24, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Zephyr]

Ego Death - What comes after Ego transcendence

Ego transcendence - What comes after enlightenment

Enlightenment - What never comes

[Joseph Maynor]

I don't think Leo will ever get his version of enlightenment.  He keeps looking for it though.

Edited June 24, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[zazed]

12 hours ago, Anna1 said:

The ego is the I-thought, that arises within the mind, although it is a thought, it takes itself to be "real" vs an object, because it has identified itself with awareness.

Nicely put. The ego is a concept of the mental mind to identify parts of the mind, or the whole mind. But it does not exist as a person/being/entity.

 

One big warning with the term ego. It is a dangerous term often misunderstood. 
Many seekers see the ego as a part of their thoughts that is undesired, part implying there is a true part of their thoughts. Thus the two parts go to war with each other, trying to let the good part prevail.
But in reality, all thoughts are ego. Our true self does not directly think, does not have opinions and does not have emotions.

 

There is no duality in the world. There are many objects in it. The body, the thoughts, the senses, trees, houses, animals, other people. 
But all these objects are one and the same. Which is life, or existence, or being.
We as enlightened awareness or consciousness experiencing life. We are being. We are not the body, nor the senses, and not the thoughts.
This body or senses are our instruments to experience the world with. The body is a machine, thoughts are also function of this machine. This statement many people reject, because there is pride in intelligence. This pride in the self as a human intelligence is the ultimate enemy of enlightenment, some call this pride alone the ego. It is the reason most cannot reach enlightenment. But we are not who we think we are, we are not this machine.

So as for ego-death or transcendence. These are things the machine can do. You could say, ego-death it is the machine permanently realizing and accepting it is the machine. But this is not as important as you might think. Because for consciousness it matters little what the body-machine does.
Leo describes this as a leap. Because you really have to go from A to C here. The mind A, cannot properly realize or know Enlightenment C.

I always liked Rupert Spira's tv analogy (poor quote from memory).

Quote

 

Take for example a TV screen playing the movie of our life. Then consciousness or enlightenment would be the TV screen, that is what we truly are. But for some reason, we as TV screen started to identify with the movie, and worse, with one particular person on the screen.
So we think we are that person. When it is in pain, we are in pain. When it is happy we are happy. When it loves, we love.

But in reality, we are neither the person or the movie. In a sense you could say, on the screen we create the movie, and thus the person.
On our "surface" the entire world is displayed, so we give it form. But we are not any of its contents above another; we are all of it and we are none of it.

When you turn the movie off, the screen does not disappear. The screen is also never hurt, broken or distorted by any of the movies contents.
The movie really has no power over the screen at all.

 

 

@Joseph Maynor Leo's version of enlightenment is the same as any version of enlightenment rly. 
Words are just words, terms and concepts are things from inside the movie, not of the screen. It is always better to pierce to the meaning of them.

 

[Nahm]

@Joseph Maynor There is just energy and you as a filter / limiter. Every time you think something is unwanted, something is undesired, unliked, Unloved, unuseful - you have filtered out a little energy, a little God. If you want to see ultraviolet light, X-rays, gamma rays, etc - simply remove the filter that limits the perception and there it was all along. Right there. So be mindful not to express such filters. Build momentum of this, and the filters will dissipate, and then those words will have meaning.  Use all the energy. Those words describe a view. 

Edited June 24, 2017 by Nahm

[Natasha]

@Joseph Maynor Ego death - the end of identification with body-mind/personal story of 'me' (fully occurs at physical 'death')

                               Ego transcendence - realizing you're not the body-mind, observing the construct while not identifying with it

                               Enlightenment - embodyment of your true nature (a.k.a awareness, the Absolute, God, etc)

[Ananta]

8 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

@Anna1 So you never really lose the ego entirely in your view?  It's interesting that people have different theories of all these concepts.  

Correct. The aspect of the ego (I-thought) that identified itself with awareness  (as an independent, volitional, entity),  realizes it is not what it thought it was. This happens when the apprehension of one's true Self (awareness) obtains within the intellect (the discriminating faculty).

The ego is an aspect of the intellect (the intellect is an aspect of the total mind). So, there is a "knowing", a recognition, that I am not what I thought I was. Then, once this "knowing" is seen clearly, there is a "shift" in identity. In this way, one could say the ego is trancended. 

It will still arise, but no longer taken seriously. The I-thought will arise anytime there is experience to be had. For all experience needs a phenomenal subject and object. You, awareness, are the witness (so to speak) of the the experiences. 

It will also arise pertaining to the body (ie. "I'm" hungry, thrist, tired, happy, sad, ill, healthy, ect, ect). It is a point of reference for the body. Also, without this reference you wouldn't be able to function, use the body.

Here's the thing, you are awareness/consciousness, not the body/mind. However, the recognition of this does happen within the intellect and since the ego is an aspect of the intellect, it to gains this Self knowledge. It does take time for it to become abiding, also one needs to "assimilate" this understanding into every aspect of one's life. Prior to this full assimilation one says, "I'm awakening". Meaning there is a back and forth shift, between identification with your "story" and ego vs. Your true identity, awareness. Even when identification shifts to your true Self, "association" with the body/mind continues. Therefore, an "I-sense" remains, it exists, its just not "real".

 

Edited June 24, 2017 by Anna1

[Joseph Maynor]

@Maxx Then why isn't the lower self part of that mix too then? Why throw the lower self away if there is no self.  Seems like that goes against non-duality.  The ego is there, why not accept it as part of the whole and learn to love the ego?  I've kinda done that.  I've harmonized with my ego.  To me you non-dualists seem like dualists because you are trying to deny part of your self.  You're beating yourself up big time with this war and rampage against the evil ego.  The distinction between the lower self and the higher self is illusory.  That's concept.  Does that make sense?  You guys cause yourselves a lot of neurosis with your theories paradoxically.  Do you see that?

Edited June 24, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Joseph Maynor]

@Dizzy Ego Transcendence seems like loss of self image.  You realize all there is is emptiness and attachment or releasing, nothing more.  That's where I'm at the doorstep of right now.  There is no life to improve.  Why cling to that concept?  That's a fiction.  All that matters is awareness and choice of what to cling to and what to release.  And what to do based on this of course.  This journey has been pretty cool.  Realizing what I am, which has paradoxically been mostly realizing what I am not.  Releasing some bad default-positions, bad theories of self.  This stuff is not airy-fairy to me.  Reality doesn't lie.  I'm a very practical and tough-minded dude.  No woo woo.

I'm a little leery about Dizzy's next stage which she terms "Enlightenment" though.  That's a theory, a concept.  Do you see that?  You're clinging to that.  You don't wanna be clinging.  You wanna be empty and aware.  No default-positions are needed.  So to me Self-Transcendence in something like Dizzy's sense just is Enlightenment.  Do don't need to cling to the theory of non-dualism even.  You folks are idealistically clinging to ideas that are adding another layer of theory onto this very simple obervable fact about reality.  

You're rationalists, theoretical-idealists basically building up a snowball matrix which you then use to look at the world with new, wildly-distorted eyes.  Googly-eyes, not sober eyes!  You're clinging to thoughts that are supplementing and distorting what is real at bottom -- the counterintuitive simplicity of reality.  Release those theories!  Release your thought-stories about Enlightenment.  I've heard so many!   

Paradoxically, in the case of Enlightenment, more thinking leads you further away from the goal rather than closer to it.  It's like trying to solve a math problem with carrots and sticks instead of pencil and paper.

Edited June 24, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Dizzy]

15 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Very nice!  I think I'm hitting the ego-transcendence stage now.  I'm losing a lot of emotions.  All my negative emotions are disappearing more and more.  More peace rather than positive emotions.  Peace and acceptance.

That's wonderful

15 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

 

I love your definition of ego-death. I went through that stage distinctly last March.  Have you experienced it?

 

Yes. 

2 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

@Dizzy Ego Transcendence seems like loss of self image.  You realize all there is is emptiness and attachment or releasing, nothing more.  That's where I'm at the doorstep of right now.  There is no life to improve.  Why cling to that concept?  

Yes. That's pretty much what I said
I am not clinging to any concept. What I said is just what I experienced before. It dosent mean I am attaching to the concept. And to be clear, I never, not even for a minute claim that a certain concept is the real and only TRUTH.

 

2 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

I'm a little leery about Dizzy's next stage which she terms "Enlightenment" though.  That's a theory, a concept.  Do you see that?  

Yes. What I wrote is a concept. How else would I express "Enlightenment" if not by theory/concept? I simply don't know any other way I could express it, if not by theory. ?

 

2 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

You wanna be empty and aware.  No default-positions are needed.

Yes, that's also a theory. Isn't it ?  

2 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

You're clinging to thoughts that are supplementing and distorting what is real at bottom -- the counterintuitive simplicity of reality.

Yeah. That's the dream state, the matrix, the shadows on the wall. Although I am not clinging to thoughts, I answered what you asked based on my direct experience and trying my best to express myself with words. 
 

 

2 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Paradoxically, in the case of Enlightenment, more thinking leads you further away from the goal rather than closer to it.

Yes. I realize it. That's why I am not going around and thinking about it. My practices does not include "today I will spend the whole day thinking and finding a good theory for what is enlightenment" LOL.

Well, It's in fact an interesting subject to discuss, however in my opinion there is really no point to discuss too long. That would be the same as going to the movies and enjoying it, and then spend hours and hours trying to "get" something more out of it. Now if asked, how does one reach a permanent state of nonduality, that's another long and interesting subject as well