What Is The Difference Between Monkey-mind And Ego

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Joseph Maynor said:

@Emerald I response to your post to Fidelio -- don't be so modest and don't beat yourself up so much.  You don't have to do that.  Just friendly advice.  You gave me some great advice, now I return the favor.  I think you said somewhere that often we can see the blind-spots in others better than they can see them in themselves.

I understand how it can look like I'm beating myself up in my post, but I'm really not. I'm just telling him my most honest experience of my thoughts and feelings relative to what he posted. He's not wrong, persay. He's right that I am ego-identified, falsely modest, dishonest, and identified with being wise. He's also right that I circled the wagons, in my own very sneaky way. I would choose to be otherwise if I could but I can only be as honest with others as much as I'm honest with myself. So, since I'm ego-identified, I have a limited ability for self-honesty and as a result I also have a limited ability to be honest with others.

Even now, I'm trying to seem a certain way with how I respond to you and how I respond to him to fortify those identities. And in my response to him, I conceded to his point and tried to be honest not simply for the sake of honesty. But so that I disarm him and look like the "good guy" of the interaction and fortify my false identification with being honest, modest, and wise. And so that others see him as being the less reasonable one of the interaction and I look like the bigger person by not firing back at him with an equal opposite counter-argument. So, I did the intellectual equivalent of turning myself into a piece of tissue when someone tries to punch me. It becomes frustrating for the person giving the offensive attack because there's no resistance there to punch against, and the person trying to punch a tissue just looks foolish and might even accidentally punch the brick wall that's behind the tissue.

Now, I don't want to do this to a person, not really. I genuinely don't like to see others in pain or discomfort. But my ego still perceives an attack and it's my go-to counter attack to use the person's own momentum against them by making it seem like I'm not even fighting them in the first place. So, it's a lot of dishonesty and trickery that I could certainly lie to myself about because it's all very subtle... I'd want to let it go, but I don't have the level of detachment just to ignore a perceived attack on myself yet. I still get irked about it. And shooting the bird would just mess up my self-image. That would awful.  

Edited June 22, 2017 by Emerald

[Emerald]

2 minutes ago, Fidelio said:

...You believe you've already acquired every scrap of knowledge possible that could assist you, and you don't see the flaw with this assumption? Consider this possibility: there is information that is helpful, and yet that doesn't exist in books or on Youtube channels; that there are things you could learn from actual people that would help you that you'd never be able to acquire otherwise, and this includes unlabeled experiences.

You still don't understand. Intellectualization and learning new perspectives on enlightenment seeking has been a major trap for me at this point in my journey. I'm not saying that I know everything there is to know. I'm saying that there's nothing that I could learn at this point that's actually going to assist me without hindering me. I already know what I have to do. Learning new perspectives on what I have to do will only distract me. What I need is much closer than any teaching. 

[Emerald]

3 minutes ago, Fidelio said:

I haven't seen anything from you to suggest you already know "what you have to do". Quite the opposite.

You didn't ask for my opinion so give this it's due attention, but imo you could benefit in ways you can't currently fathom by visiting a local Buddhist or Hindu temple, and possibly even joining or just taking part in some of their practices. You remember the part in The Karate Kid where Mr. Miyagi made Daniel wash his cars all day? Wax on wax off? And then Daniel got mad because he thought it had nothing to do with learning karate, but then Mr. Miyagi showed him that it did? Well sometimes that is how we learn: sometimes partaking in tasks we don't necessarily think have anything to do with our "goal" actually have everything to do with it. If you think you already know everything, you will avoid experiences that could have helped you--or possibly even taken you over the finish line. If Daniel had said to Mr. Miyagi, "I already know how to wash cars, and this has nothing to do with karate. Fuck this." and walked away, he never would have learned Karate and would have continued to get his ass kicked every day.

I understand your thought process. But I'm specifically talking about immersing myself in more intellect-based teachings not being a good idea. Like I said, if I were to go to a Buddhist Temple, it would be of benefit to me only if it were based in practice and not in teachings. But I believe this because my emotions are leading me to almost nowhere. There is hardly anywhere I can go to hide out anymore. So, nowhere is where I need to be. Before, I'd have my intuitions lead me to this teacher or that book or that video. This doesn't happen anymore. Things are becoming meaningless to me, and that's exactly what needs to happen. So, I'm trying now to exhaust all things of meaning now including being the "wise" person meaning so that I have no other choice but to just be. This process will be harmed by getting into some other meaning-based thing where I can get caught up in the trap of intellect. 

[Joseph Maynor]

@Fidelio wrote "Familiar with Shakespeare? The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

You seem awfully upset by my response to Emerald, and interjected yourself into the conversation which, one would think, had nothing to do with you. And since you've apparently appeared out of nowhere with a knowledge of the goings-on here more than your supposed two weeks from signup would suggest--you don't think that some might find that a little odd?" 

Fidelio -- This is my question, my original post, so I'll interject myself where I please, and I do not need to seek your permission or anybody else's permission to do so.  This forum is open to all opinions on any issue.  Let's get back on track please.  Enough sniping.  You and I are both guilty of it, as these posts attest to.  Ego has gotten the best of both of us, and judgments come back to bite both of us, do you agree?  Have you responded to my original question yet?  I look forward to a good faith response from you on point.  Thank you.  Lets bury the hatchet, ok?   

Edited June 22, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Joseph Maynor]

@Fidelio wrote "You don't seem relaxed. You seem quite agitated. 

If you aren't someone's sock puppet--good for you. If you are a fake account, my previous comment stands: this type of behavior is an impediment to your goal, and will only end up causing you more suffering."

Fidelio -- I will not respond to this bait.  I'll take the high road instead.  See my prior comment.  Let's get back on track with my original question please, as we have gone too far into the weeds with this sniping back and forth.  I feel like Tiger Woods on a bad day trying to hit the ball out of the rough and back onto the greens.  I have no cause to cross swords with you.  What do I have to gain by fighting with you?  There's no reasonable strategic intent for me to do so because we are not even arguing on point with the topic of this question.  We're in the weeds.  I really, really do love to argue, but only constructively.  Ego has gotten the best of both of us here.  Let's bury the hatchet, ok?  It takes two to tango.  We both know that.    Argue the hell out of one of my question topics and I'll be happy to cross swords with you constructively.  I argue for a living, so I'm pretty good at it.    Go ahead, I'll let you have the last word here.  Shoot.   I won't reply.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Natasha]

@Joseph Maynor Emerald has given a pretty good definition in her post above. I'll just add that we all have monkey-mind to one degree or another, and that it sources from the collective ego-mind. Sometimes we don't even know where our thoughts come from, they seem to just appear and as suddenly disappear and almost always revolve around either the past or the future, which are not reality. Mindfulness practice and meditation bring mind back to the present moment, here and now. Observe your thoughts, don't absorb them.

Here's a funny monkey-mind stand-up for you 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-wSEtbnpnI 

 

[nightrider1435]

5 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

@nightrider1435 I am relaxed.  

Don't shoot the messenger.  Got anything substantive to add to my post?  I'm curious.

Good. I really don't have anything else to add to that but again just relax... 

2 hours ago, Natasha said:

 Observe your thoughts, don't absorb them.

@Joseph Maynor That's all you have to do man. ^^^

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Fidelio said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "intellect-based" teachings--are there osmosis-based teachings? Because if so, sign me up.

So how has what you've been doing worked so far? Much luck? Because if not perhaps it's time to try a new approach. Or don't

Intellect-based teachings are things that can be learned conceptually. They are teachings. The most effective intellect-based teachings are designed for unlearning untruths. The thing that I need is more about letting go of ideas and concepts so that I have nowhere to hide. In order to do this, I must implement a practical process for allowing the thoughts to be there without getting involved in them. Basically, I have a neurotic clinging to intellectualization and to see my primary worth as a person through my intellectual abilities. And that's the tendency and attachment that needs to be let go of.

So, to learn more teachings would be to exacerbate this issue because I can use it to prop up my identity. Plus, teachings have lost meaning to me and I can barely listen to or read anything anymore without losing interest. So, I take that as a sign that right now is the time for me to really let go of the illusion that finding understanding will lead to an experience of Truth.

Right now, my practice is to engage in all sorts of interactions that involve my "wise person" ego identity and to try become disenchanted with it and detached from it through realizing that it isn't giving me the peace and fulfillment that I really want from it. It helps to see a lot of others playing the same game as me because it destroys the illusion that I'm special. Prior to being involved on this forum and with my channel, I was the lone person on this path which came with a certain delusion of grandeur. Now that I see others, I realize that it's silly. It would be like me thinking that I'm special because I'm a stamp collector or something.

 However, I haven't exhausted all outlets for this identity yet. Otherwise, my practice is just to notice throughout the day when I'm engaged in intellectualization and to cut the conversation short by anchoring myself back in my sensory experiences. I think that I'm making progress with it. 

Edited June 23, 2017 by Emerald

[Nahm]

11 hours ago, Emerald said:

I am definitely firmly entrenched in ego and my affectation comes from that. And "wise ego" and "modest ego" are both ego-identifications of mine. I'm just not at the point where I can let go of it. They're like security blankets. This is simply where I am at the moment. I'd like to be more honest if I could from where I am, but I'm already pushing myself to the maximum brink of how honest and thorough I can be about my experiences without having transcended the ego. But I've found that a high degree of default dishonesty is just a normal part of being an ego-identified person. 

But what I was saying in my post was that I have already learned everything from books, teachers, and videos that can possibly help me at this point. So, if at this point, I were to immerse myself in more teachings, it's only for the sake of distraction and creating another security blanket. Just like my activity on here is only for the sake of distraction and for creating another security blanket. My channel functions in largely the same way too, though I hope it's not a solely ego-driven pursuit.

My hope is that in diving into these things and seeing how unsatisfying they are, that I can actually manage to let go of these. However, some of these identifications came about for my childhood self to protect itself against trauma. So, there are identities that are harder to weed out because some parts of myself still need them as coping mechanisms to function. They are like crutches. If I kick them out from under myself before I'm ready, I will fall and hurt myself worse. 

Your self awareness and honesty is inspiring to me. You rock.

[Emerald]

47 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Your self awareness and honesty is inspiring to me. You rock.

Thank you.

[Joseph Maynor]

SOUL -- How do we make sense of theory then?  You seem to give with one hand and then take away with the other when it comes to theory, and then conclude that it is all pointless ultimately?  Please enlighten me on that issue.  I hope I haven't mis-characterized your here.  Why deal in theory at all if it is erroneous?

Edited June 23, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Emerald]

4 hours ago, Fidelio said:

I don't have time to say this nicely, so I'll just say it honestly: this is bullshit. As in, the stuff that plops out of a cow's rear end after a long day of munching grass. The reason for this is because you are projecting your own motivations onto others; assuming everyone is "playing a game" like you say you are. You can't know what is in the mind of another, and to think you do, and that some practice based on this assumption will lead you to some goal is delusion. Maybe it will, but if so, you'll get there by accident.

You like to emulate and copy what others do, so I'll put this in a way you might be able to understand: if someone wants to become a good actor, they might start off emulating one of their heroes, say, Meryl Streep or Robert Dinero, and trying their style before finding their own legs. The same with someone who wants to be a great musician, teacher, or just about anything else. So if you want to be an enlightened person, what do you think an enlightened person would do? How closely do you think your current behavior matches that? If it doesn't match much, perhaps you should make adjustments on this rather than some made up bullshit you just came up with?

I still don't think that you understand. But that's okay. 

[Emerald]

4 hours ago, Fidelio said:

Winky dink is right. But this is just a practice run. The real test is can you do it out in the real world where you aren't supported by a bunch of yes-puppets?

It's still nice to say thank you when someone pays you a compliment. It speaks to their character more than it says anything about me. 

[SOUL]

10 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

SOUL -- How do we make sense of theory then?  You seem to give with one hand and then take away with the other when it comes to theory, and then conclude that it is all pointless ultimately?  Please enlighten me on that issue.  I hope I haven't mis-characterized your here.  Why deal in theory at all if it is erroneous?

You asked what's the difference and I replied in a way to clarify what some of the facets of consciousness are and what people may be referring to with those words. I didn't say anything about theory or that anything is ultimately pointless so not sure how I can reply to those.

[SOUL]

@Fidelio So when do you plan to start this "refined, tried and true" method yourself?

[SOUL]

@Fidelio  What is this "everything" that is "second nature"?.... "almost" that is....

[RichardY]

On 6/22/2017 at 0:59 PM, Emerald said:

For me, for about a year, I was really into Jungian Psychology. I would read every book that I could get my hands on. Then, came a time where I had reached a point where it reached a point of diminishing returns simply just to hash and rehash the theory. So, that dropped off and I found myself a series of various teachers (including Leo) that I absolutely immersed myself in their teachings. And I basically binge watched or read anything that they had to offer.

Maybe you're lonely.

Could  you recommend any particular works by Carl Jung or similar teachers? I think that "Modern Man in search a soul," "Man and his symbols", "The Undiscovered Self" are excellent books. 

"I want to exist from my own force, like the sun which gives light and does not suck light." Carl Jung

[SOUL]

@Fidelio I was quoting the words you used, that's an appropriate use of them but thank you for your concern about my grammar. I apologize if it made it so difficult to answer me.

Can you find it in you to answer the question? What is this everything that is almost second nature to you? I'm genuinely interested to hear your answer.

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, RichardY said:

Maybe you're lonely.

Could  you recommend any particular works by Carl Jung or similar teachers? I think that "Modern Man in search a soul," "Man and his symbols", "The Undiscovered Self" are excellent books. 

"I want to exist from my own force, like the sun which gives light and does not suck light." Carl Jung

I recommend The Red Book and The Undiscovered Self from Jung. The Red Book is really the basis for all of Jung's other work, where he interacts with various daimonic forces in his own psyche. It's a dense book but it really gives you an idea of how his theories came to fruition. I've also read a ton from other authors working under the Jungian model which I found to be very relatable. My favorite Jungian author is Jean Benedict Raffa. I also have read things from June Singer, Maureen Murdoch, Monika Wikman, Jean Shinoda Bolen, Robert Johnson, and John Stanford which were really beneficial to me in varying degrees. 

But I'm not really lonely persay, other than the natural loneliness that comes with ego-identification. It's just that the path changes as you go along it. There is a saying that goes something like (paraphrased) "At first there are rivers and mountains and trees. Then there are no rivers and mountains and trees. Then there are rivers and mountains and trees." So, each phase of the journey is different from the other. So, if you are new to the path, don't feel bad or get discouraged when you lose interest in things that have been vital to you in the earlier stages of the journey. Allow yourself to resonate with what you resonate with for a time, and then let go of it when you no longer resonate with it. Trust your intuition and flow with it to whatever resonates and feels expansive.

[SOUL]

29 minutes ago, Fidelio said:

Well, do you remember what we were talking about? I suggested to Emerald she follow the eight-fold path, and then you asked me if I follow it myself, and then I responded that yes, I have, for about a year, and that it's now almost second nature, and now you are asking me what is second nature, and I refer you back to my last post-->the eight-fold path. If you don't know what that is, I suggest you look it up as I don't have time to explain everything. Or, since Emerald knows all there is to know about everything spiritual, perhaps she could come down from the mountain and enlighten ye sinners.

Why are you so angry? Also why are you so bitter and dismissive of others because their way doesn't mirror yours? What in your spirituality brings you to call other people's way of expressing their spirituality as "bullshit"?

If this is the type of behavior and attitude towards others the eight-fold path produces in someone who claims to have it's teachings as second nature to them I'm not sure it's something that benefits anyone.