How I Awoke: The Story And Dynamics Of My Awakening

[Azrael]

2 hours ago, username said:

@Azrael  Are you free of self-image issues, insecurities, feelings of incompleteness, and lack of fulfillment?

If we define a self-image issue as an automatic subconscious resistance in form of a thought + feeling with the context of not being able to accept a certain property of the self-image, then yeah. I don't fuck with myself no more.

Insecurities still exist as a raw phenomenon, because there are still things I learn and am not very good in. The attachment to a certain insecurity is - depending on the context and how important I think it is - mostly gone, so I don't care. But I still have all my weak spots and they can still be triggered. It's just that my body doesn't react in an emotional way to it any more. My mind might think about it, but my body feels no negative self-resisting emotions. And that's like watching a horror movie with friendly music in the background. Not to be taken that seriously.

Feelings of incompleteness and lack of fulfilment are gone. That's probably one of the major things. Throughout the day, you don't lack anything any more. You are complete and through that fulfilled. I do experience a lack of motivation because of that. I do. I do less shit and live even slower. But that's just the beginning. So that might be a phase.

[Guest username]

Quote

17:71 Just so, if your body was cut, and you really didn’t consider this body as anything you or yours, what reaction would there be? Even with this sensation present, we can imagine that very little pain would exist, perhaps none. Just sensation. The pain and reaction caused by the knowledge that your body is being cut would not exist. Just a feeling that some flesh, insignificant and unimportant to you, was being cut. This is a remarkable difference we rarely appreciate. And yet it clearly demonstrates how attachment to things, and identification with things, amplifies, if not outright creates, effects and reactions—including pain. We can imagine then that without any self-identity or a self at all, there would be no pain. 

From The Book of Not Knowing by Peter Ralston

How much does that resonate with you @Azrael?

[Dizzy]

@Azrael  would you please describe how was your no break through experience with 5 - MeO ? How so / or what holdings would you say prevented to break through these times ?  

 

[Azrael]

16 hours ago, username said:

How much does that resonate with you @Azrael?

Not very much. For that kind of resilience you need to actually "visit the places" as I mentioned in my metaphor. You need years of training and discipline. It's one thing to be not additionally attached to emotions and sensations because of the integration of the constructed self, it's another to be 100% resilient towards natural bodily reactions.

[Azrael]

41 minutes ago, Dizzy said:

@Azrael  would you please describe how was your no break through experience with 5 - MeO ? How so / or what holdings would you say prevented to break through these times ? 

There was nothing holding me back, I just took a no-breakthrough dose. I wanted to get into the feeling again because I hadn't done it for a while. No big experience. Nothing to report on.

[Guest username]

@Azrael Do you unconditionally love all of reality,everything, everyone? 

[JustinS]

@Azrael Do you still get lost in monkey mind? Ruminating over the past? Do you rest in Being for the majority of your day? 

[Azrael]

5 hours ago, username said:

@Azrael Do you unconditionally love all of reality,everything, everyone? 

Nope, again the recognition of the self has nothing to do with that. Your real character will shine through. A rapist that'll become a enlightened will be even better in raping women after he is enlightened. Because the resistance to his raping will probably be mostly gone and he can freely rape.

Unconditional love comes from "visiting the places" for years and decades, not from knowing that they exist.

[Azrael]

5 hours ago, JustinS said:

@Azrael Do you still get lost in monkey mind? Ruminating over the past? Do you rest in Being for the majority of your day? 

I don't get quote on quote lost in it any more because when I think and I am aware that I do so, it's a very pleasant experience. But compulsive thoughts are not around very much. Even in stressful situations, my mind is mostly calm and it never feels bad to think. That is the main difference I'd say. Before it was often very painful and disturbing to get lost in it. Right now, it feels like a tingeling sensation in my head when I think, not a tension or pressure as it did before.

Yeah, you rest in Being automatically without going there. You too, just that you are torn out of there more because of resisted thoughts and feelings that seem to you that you have to "do" something right now to get out of your current situation. That stops, and you feel you are there. Through that, everything relaxes and returns to default. And Being is default.

[Natasha]

4 hours ago, Azrael said:

Nope, again the recognition of the self has nothing to do with that. Your real character will shine through. A rapist that'll become a enlightened will be even better in raping women after he is enlightened. Because the resistance to his raping will probably be mostly gone and he can freely rape.

Unconditional love comes from "visiting the places" for years and decades, not from knowing that they exist.

True. One has to cultivate compassion after an awakening, especially if they lacked it before the shift. Self-realization does not guarantee a shift in one's moral compass.

 

[Toby]

8 hours ago, Azrael said:

will be even  better in raping women after he is enlightened. Because the resistance to his raping will probably be mostly gone and he can freely rape.

Biggest bs I've read in a while. You cannot rape someone if you realize oneness with them. You can have an awakening and do this, but it is certainly not possible in the enlightened state.

[I Am That]

@Toby

That comment makes me think about the Rinzai Zen masters who were fanatical supporters of the Japanese military or Joshu Sasaki, another Rinzai Zen master, who was accused of sexual abuse of his students . Exactly just how much cultural and parental conditioning survives liberation is an interesting topic.

@Azrael

Would you care to elaborate on the rapist comment in relation to parental conditioning? 

[Prabhaker]

6 hours ago, Toby said:

You can have an awakening and do this, but it is certainly not possible in the enlightened state.

Ordinarily people don’t fall from awakening, but the possibility remains: one can fall. From enlightenment there is no possibility of falling back, because you are no longer there to fall back. 

but ...

The sin is not in occurrence of violence. The sin is in the act of committing violence. The occurrence of violence is impossible, but the act of violence is possible. Violence is not there, but the desire for violence, the motivation for violence, the violent state of mind is there. One who has a desire for violence, one who takes an interest in violence, one who takes credit for violence, his taking pleasure in violence, his mental belief that violence is possible - all of this is evil, sinful.

When social systems change, many things suddenly become absurd and obsolete. There was a time when if a woman was not kidnapped by some man it was thought no one loved her, that she was an ugly and unwanted woman. In those days kidnapping was a way of honoring women. Of course, that time is past, and we are in different times. But even today if inside a university campus a young woman is never brushed against by a young man while passing in the corridors, she feels rejected and miserable; there is no end to her unhappiness. And watch a woman carefully who complains that she is being jostled by men around her, and you will notice how really happy she feels about this business.

A woman wants that some man should really think of kidnapping her, that he should love her so much he feels compelled to steal her instead of begging for her. It is a cowardly and dead society when life’s light is dimmed; it loses zest and vitality. Like a weakling it runs away from challenges and dangers and plays safe.

In a heroic age, a brave world, when life, bursting with energy, full of fire and radiance, invites challenges and stakes everything to meet them. In such society it will be an insult to womanhood if someone does not kidnap a woman he loves but instead sends supplications to her parents and maneuvers for her hand in marriage. And the woman concerned would say , ”If you don’t have the courage to steal me it is better you had not thought of me.

[Azrael]

@I Am That, good example!

51 minutes ago, I Am That said:

Would you care to elaborate on the rapist comment in relation to parental conditioning? 

I will have to make a few distinctions before we can explore the dynamics of my claim that you are very well able - if not more prone - to rape someone when you are enlightened and you were like that before it.

Well, let's start by clarifying that that being able to recognize the source of your nature + having an integrated ego in the sense that you stop physiologically resisting your authentic character by sensations, feelings and thoughts is completely distinct from a moral position you might take on in our life.

How can that be? How can someone who recognizes himself as everything and nothing could still harm an aspect of himself e.g. rape someone? How could that be? The beginner and the intermediate practitioner who has had enlightenment like experiences is likely to project that enlightenment is something similar that one experienced maybe in deep meditation. Full letting go, merging with awareness... that kind of stuff. This'll automatically lead to the false assumption that you could not harm anything in that blissful, expanded open state. Makes sense.

Well, enlightenment isn't like that. What I described here is an experience and enlightenment is not an experience. You might feel very calm, blissful, open and expanded when you are enlightened, but this'll be a symptom of the recognition and integration that took place. Also note, that you'll still live your normal life with challenges, hopes, fears etc. That'll still hugely direct your consciousness in a very pragmatic way.

But more importantly enlightenment sets free your authentic un-resisted character. This character may result from societal / parental conditioning, circumstances, predispositions (whatever you think it is - doesn't matter). But as the ego relaxes and let's this un-resisted character shine through, it'll present itself in every facet with every of its attributes.

That's why if you were for example naturally prone to rape women or something happened to you that made you belief that you need to to that or however you came to the conclusion that this is your thing to do, you'll still do that after you are enlightened. You'll still do that even if you feel open, relaxed and expanded. You'll still do that if you feel that you are the very thing that you rape. Just because, your character chooses to do so, just as you as a moral defender choose to judge the one who does it without seeing the whole picture.

Moralism is as any set of opinions and beliefs something that a character type might take on or might not. This will hugely depend on the culture, conditioning, circumstances etc. Non of that is God-given or Truth. it's one way to do stuff.

[Guest username]

@Azrael I was contemplating what  God and unconditional love might be a few years back, and I arrived at the insight that if God was all encompassing and absolutely, indiscriminately loving, that it would just be reality itself.

I began to see nihilism (in it's most literal sense, not the depressing version, the meaningless version) and unconditional love as two sides of the same coin.

I don't view unconditional love as a strictly humanitarian or moral thing.

I plan to see how true this is with my own direct experiences, but I'm wondering if it at all corresponds with your insight. I had dismissed it for a while until I saw Leo spouting the same thing, which aroused my curiosity in it once more.

Edited June 18, 2017 by username

[Natasha]

@I Am That In his Systems Thinking video last week Leo was talking about the Yellow Stage consciousness and how it's more advanced comparing to the Blue, Orange, and Green. Zen is in the Blue dogmatic stage. One could be enlightened at the lower stages of psychological development, yet they wouldn't be advanced enough psychologically to properly integrate the ego and follow up awakening with effective shadow work, at least right away. 

Enlightenment doesn't make one automatically a high conscious being. You have to advance yourself psychologically as well. Thus, Yellow stage consciousness = Self-realization + Properly integrated ego/Shadow work. I don't think Tier 2 is possible without these 2 factors.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Natasha

[Toby]

It is unbelievable how you took glimpses you had and now justify the rapist-story. That is the perfect example of a trap and why you are unwilling to sit with a teacher. Your ego could be exposed. Enlightenment is beyond emotional-mental conditioning. Even beyond phyisical conditioning. It is not going to happen. There are many stories of "masters" that abused students. It were unresolved patterns that lead to that imo. It would be a huge mistake to just say "oh, that's just how they are". Or to say "oh that's just the culture". No, these are unconscious patterns.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Toby

[Martin123]

Lets shush it guys!  this is a fruitful and beneficial topic! Lets not get it locked for silly reasons and petty disagreements. We can be pretty clear that the likelihood of someone here raping before or after awakening is quite small!

[Natasha]

@Toby Animals see reality as is and most of them even have no self-awareness, yet they still run on their natural (and some on predatory) instincts - survival mechanisms. Those Zen masters who operate on low conscious psychological patterns are not much different from a predatory animal. A psychopath won't turn into a saint as the shift occurs. It all depends on which stage of psychological development one was at when they awoke. That's why I'm such a proponent of shadow work following self-realization - we all have issues we need to resolve, be one awakened/enlightened or not.   

 Osho collects women and expensive cars and Buddha was known for occasionally indulging in too much alchohol, while both enlightened. Their natural instincts and conditioned behaviors were preserved even after awakening. And the list can go on. 

A tough bullet to swallow, but It is what it is. 

[Toby]

Animals or children just are but they for the most part are not conscious of it. Also you cannot pick unconscious behaviour as a proof that it is natural with enlightenment. Oshos cars were just for marketing I guess. But that's just an opinion. Also I'd guess running around raping people is different than enjoying life - and for example - drink or smoke. Or eat meat or unhealthy food.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Toby