Confused About Military

[Edvard]

@Clint Eastwood Yeah, I am only considering it for a place to grow, by, like you for instance mentioned, getting further away from comfort-zone than anywhere else, both mentally and physically. It's not really because I think the system is nice, and I'm not a nationalist, although I'm for freedom and being civilized, and look at it in a way of protecting those values. Additionaly I'm interested in technology, and it's a unique school of developing theoretical and practical skills along with great challenges, which should make me grow a lot. If I don't go for this military telematics bachelor (+leadership) I will take a bachelor in physics at a civilian school instead. Really unsure about it.

[Edvard]

Can add that this military school will give me no living cost + wages during the three years of education, so although that's not the most important thing, it helps making it an attractive alternative. After education I am also guaranteed (and mandatory) work in the Defence for three years, protecting, developing and running computer- and communication systems. This would give me an advantage later in life, if I want to start a business.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Edvard

[Leo Gura]

Imagine for a moment if birds thoughts like you're thinking: "OMG! What if those ISIS people come kill us and barbecue our bodies to feed their kids!!! OMG! We have no nuclear weapons to defend ourselves. OMG!!! We need more nuclear weapons! OMG!!!"

No, it's ridiculous. You only think that way when you're a scared pathetic little ego who doesn't understand life.

Go outside your house and observe the birds.

BTW, the USA is the #1 purveyor of destruction around the world. When you're scared and egotistical, you have a need to manipulate and destroy. $100 billion dollars of arms just sold to Saudi Arabia. The destruction is really just veiled greed. And it's been that way for thousands of years. Wars are about power and money-grabbing.

Meantime, Costa Rica disbanded their entire military, choosing to invest their resources into social development and education.

[Damir Elezi]

@Edvard Firstly, I don't think that the actions of ISIS are really fundamentally motivated in their religion, because if they were, every orthodox muslim would be doing the same. ISIS is motivated by socio-economic factors. If you take a look at history, religion almost never really acts as the reason for war, not even in such a typical case like the crusades a.s.o. It acts like a fuel, which turns people who are already full of hatred into monsters by justifying their acts. In other words - we may lack that form of justification, but if we fight them out of fear for our lives, we act very similar as them. Do not believe that they are doing this out of some evil intention. But I don't want to turn this to a debate about politics or the nature of Islam. (I'm not a muslim btw, but I don't consider Islam an especially dangerous religion. Religion itself may be a problem, but Islam is really nothing special in that case.) Moving on then: 

Keep in mind that it's your opinion to think that the military is necessary, I would say it is not. But it's a matter of perspective. I also think you can't say that going to the military is low-consciousness automatically. This is also a kind of judgement which we actually don't want to make so quick... right? I think what Leo wants to tell you is the thing they call "unwholesome deeds" in buddhism. Specific actions, harming and killing another being on purpose for example, are said to influence the mind in such a way that it takes you further away from an enlightened state. But Buddha also says that it's the intention, the thought behind it, which makes the difference, not the action itself. By that logic, if you kill somebody with the intention of saving others, it should not be considered a "low-consciousness action" (Notice that this is also a term used to discriminate things which just happen.) 

I know, there are many paradoxes in this field, but accept them and over time you will understand a bit better. I have been following Leo for some time now and it starts to really make sense to me, although it often seems to contradict itself. 

As the french philosopher Albert Camus said, the most important question a human being can ask is: Why should I not kill myself? There is ultimately no "good reason" to eat, to wake up in the morning, to live at all. You do it because you want to (if you want to), and that's all there is in my opinion. If you want to go to the military, go. If you want to live in the woods and pursue enlightenment, go. Nobody really knows it better than you. 

[Visitor]

7 hours ago, Edvard said:

@Visitor That made some sense. If I didn't have an ego, I wouldn't care if I existed or if ISIS existed. They would still kill me though, but that's fine. Is that sort of what you're saying?

@Edvard No because I still have an ego that will raise fear in me. It is not about not having an ego, but having one in control (humbled). If I didn't care if an offensive would kill me then I would have to be mind-soul prepared to leave the body-mind (in reference to body-mind-soul). I would also be sad for the mind-souls who are not prepared to leave their body-minds yet. This is the point I am saying, in today's world most are not yet prepared.

7 hours ago, Visitor said:

...As long as this world is greedy for validity of ego-self, there will always be wars. Always depriving others from awakening....

If this world overcame their greed for validity of ego-self then the world would not want to sabotage itself by starting wars.

Edited June 1, 2017 by Visitor

[Edvard]

@Leo Gura It doesn't seem like you've read all I've said on this topic, which is understandable, and I'm happy that you answer regardless. By the way, ISIS was really just an example. Maybe it works for some countries to disbandon military, I mean Costa Rica doesn't neighbour to Russia, like Norway does.. Not the main point though. By the way, I have observed birds, and they can get pretty upset when an intruder tries to eat its kids. Some, like the falcon may use their weapons of claws, for protection. 

I'm not even a fan of the USA military by any means, but I view the military in Norway as a place to grow, challenge myself and getting farther from comfort-zone than anywhere else. As I said earlier, I'm not a nationalist (nor a conservative if some thought that), although I think participating in the Norwegian military will be a contribution to the protection of freedom and being civilized, which I value. And Norway is very different from USA on many things, including the military, although member of NATO. I'm not considering the military for "noble" reasons, but primarily as a way to grow and to give me advantages for life purpose, because the education will give me free living and wages + three years of guranteed work, which would be great if I wanted to start a business later. Is there absolutely no way I can be happy by doing this, you say?

I understand that military is low-consiousness in itself, though. But there are unfortunately megalomaniac people out there, who would take over the world, and suppress and kill people who don't agree with them, don't see how that could be a wrong notion.

Let's say I am happy even if getting tortured or suppressed, I could imagine that, and I do believe you. But what do you mean when talking about contribution to the world? If it doesn't matter how people on earth is treated generally whatsoever, what kind of life purpose and contribution would make any sense? Why try to change the world to the better, if firstly there is no such thing as a good or bad world, and secondly people can be happy no matter what?

 

[Leo Gura]

@Edvard I am talking about a radically higher level of consciousness. Where death is a joke and the entire world is already perfect.

You cannot imagine such a level of consciousness from your current level of consciousness because if you could, you'd already be there and what I say would be obvious and self-evident.

What do you care about here? Do you want to live in your present level of consciousness, or do you want to experience something beyond?

If you like your present level of consciousness, by all means, go do the military thing. It will be more of the same. But if you want something different, you have to start looking at things very differently.

You don't need Actualized.org or self-improvement if you want to remain the same. It's a waste of time in that case.

How do you plan to be happy, if you are so afraid of death and so worried about ISIS?

[Edvard]

@Leo Gura So if I do the military thing for these at least six years, you say I will never be able to reach higher consiousness? Or at least during these six years?

[Leo Gura]

@Edvard If you did the military thing for 6 years, could you never become a doctor, or a stockbroker, or a zookeeper?

The root issue here is that you're looking for fulfillment, but the way you're going about it, it will never work. But you sincerely believe that it will. So you will probably waste decades of your life just to learn that. Which you could learn right now in 5 minutes.

Think about it. How is fulfillment gotten in life?

[Edvard]

@Leo Gura I guess so, so OK, I guess it's obvious I would have a chance afterwards, then. What about during these 6 years? No chance of ever being happy in that time? What if I only do it for developing discipline and growing by learning about military, society, leadership and technology and getting out of comfort zone? And meditate (which I have done 20 minutes a day for a month now). Isn't it at all about intentions, but that just being in the military would never ever make me happy?

Edited June 1, 2017 by Edvard

[Edvard]

The chance of getting into real combat is very low, although real. That's a cost I will have to take, of course, but like someone said here: 

1 hour ago, Damir Elezi said:

Keep in mind that it's your opinion to think that the military is necessary, I would say it is not. But it's a matter of perspective. I also think you can't say that going to the military is low-consciousness automatically. This is also a kind of judgement which we actually don't want to make so quick... right? I think what Leo wants to tell you is the thing they call "unwholesome deeds" in buddhism. Specific actions, harming and killing another being on purpose for example, are said to influence the mind in such a way that it takes you further away from an enlightened state. But Buddha also says that it's the intention, the thought behind it, which makes the difference, not the action itself. By that logic, if you kill somebody with the intention of saving others, it should not be considered a "low-consciousness action" (Notice that this is also a term used to discriminate things which just happen.) 
 

What is your view on that?

Edited June 1, 2017 by Edvard

[Leo Gura]

You're not thinking this through deeply enough.

[Edvard]

@Leo Gura I don't doubt that, but I'm thinking as deep as I'm capable of (by no free will), trying to do my best, that's why I seek answers. 

[Edvard]

28 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Edvard If you did the military thing for 6 years, could you never become a doctor, or a stockbroker, or a zookeeper?

The root issue here is that you're looking for fulfillment, but the way you're going about it, it will never work. But you sincerely believe that it will. So you will probably waste decades of your life just to learn that. Which you could learn right now in 5 minutes.

Think about it. How is fulfillment gotten in life?

I don't sincerely believe that anything works, I try to be open-minded. I am faaar from being sure that military is what I should do. Physics at a civilian school is actually slightly more likely at this point, and you helped that to be the case. I look for insigths, I just think that is what I should do now, because I'm so unsure. Most people at my age in my environment don't even think about the possibility that military could somehow be "low-consiousness", "what the hell are you talking about?". I'm trying to seek answers, to understand, and to understand what I should do to be fulfilled, as you correctly realised.

[Edvard]

@Leo Gura

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

@Edvard

You don't need Actualized.org or self-improvement if you want to remain the same. It's a waste of time in that case.

How do you plan to be happy, if you are so afraid of death and so worried about ISIS?

How do you know what I'm afraid of? I brought up ISIS as an EXAMPLE because that seems to be commonly viewed as one of the world issues now, by many. I'm not worried in a sense that I'm really thinking about it everyday, fanatizing about their death. I don't even know what to think about death. Again, I used death as an example, asking you on the forum about whether I should value it, in some sort of retorical question, not that I go around scared of death all the time. I want to self-improve and Actualize, but I don't just take a person's word for it when he says: "join the military, and you will be unhappy". I want to understand it myself, too. 

 

And how many really scared about death, would even consider to join the military? If I was that scared, I could just let the military do the dirty work, protecting me from ISIS, which I then would be so afraid of..

Edited June 2, 2017 by Edvard

[Edvard]

BTW, maybe I can't understand it. if that takes thousaunds of hours of training, should I just take your word for it then, do you suggest?

[Wyatt]

@Edvard It's not going to take thousands of hours of training to understand what Leo's talking about. All the good and evil in the world is a construct of your mind, they're not real. If you pursue being in the military based on fear, anger, panic, vengeance, superiority, or paranoia of the "enemy" to end "evil," you're going to regularly feel those negative emotions for the years that you serve. Not to mention the potential for seriously regretting killing others or getting PTSD.

Pursue what you love because you're passionate about it. That will bring you and those around you the most positive emotions

[Edvard]

@Wyatt Throughout this topic I've been trying to say that's not at all the reason why I CONSIDER being in the military. I am passionate about technology, psysical training, knowledge and growing as a person by pushing my comfort zone. All of that is contained in this military engineering educaiton. OK, it's not going to take thousands of hours. Good, then I can understand it now, which is what I wondered about. So lets discuss it. Come with your understandable arguments for pacifism.

[Edvard]

Because evil is a construct of the mind, like I even said, doesn't mean people shouldn't protect themselves or their values. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that if I become a pacifist now, I can't defend it, that's why I try to understand it. Leo seemed to say that I need to be closer to enlightenment to actually understand that, and becoming enlightened would take thousands of hours training my mind. BTW the vast majority of people aren't pacifists, so it can't be that easy or simple.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Edvard

[electroBeam]

On 6/2/2017 at 8:30 AM, Leo Gura said:

@Edvard If you did the military thing for 6 years, could you never become a doctor

By becoming a doctor, you're choosing to destroy viruses and diseases.

Destroying viruses and diseases is no different to destroying human beings. You're resisting life either way.

@Edvard No matter what you do, you're going to be living a life opposite of self actualization. Whether you join the military, or become a doctor, its gonna be a career in resistance to becoming your true self. Humanity's core function is about destroying the already perfect universe. Its almost as if, that's what it was here to do, and no career is going to stop that. 

In my opinion, join the military. You will learn how to get close to death, and still be ok with it. Which is perfect for the later stages of self actualization.